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Old 01-17-2005, 01:16 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by jeff
Maybe this should go to a different thread - let's see if it grows enough to warrant it.

Certainly HMOs and insurance companies are private institutions, but they are regulated by government. For example, in NJ, HMOs must pay a properly filed claim after a certain number of days or be subject to action by the state; there are also laws protecting the consumer from improperly having claims denied, and as I mentioned, being denied insurance in the first place via DNA tests. Why are such regulations necessary? Because without them there are terrible abuses - definitely including denying contracted care for legitemate medical needs of HMO members. There is a very unequal contest between a large corporation and an individual who desperately needs care. This is an example of why I'm against laissez-faire capitalism: the individual is powerless without government protection, and methods like challenges via the legal system too slow and expensive to be useful (and the corporations can outgun the individual there as well). This, BTW, is one of the fatal flaws in Libertarianism, in my opinion. The losers and weak (and against corporations, that's all individuals) go to the wall...
Agree, this insurance topic could be an interesting thread.

Additionally, many insurance companies are guaranteed and compensated by the federal governement. National Flood Insurance Program is one that comes immediately to mind. As such, with the federal government repaying on the dollar to insurance companies comes an obligation on the part of the company to insure even the most likely claimants.
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Old 01-18-2005, 11:04 AM   #42
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Regarding the taking of DNA samples...

The law requires police to get a warrant before taking a DNA sample from you. I don't know the exact legalese, but this is what my initial research indicates. Probable cause must be shown, or consent must be given, or a sample must be in plain sight (thinking of CSI episode with a cigarette butt in the videogame ashtray).
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Old 01-18-2005, 01:42 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokken
Regarding the taking of DNA samples...

The law requires police to get a warrant before taking a DNA sample from you. I don't know the exact legalese, but this is what my initial research indicates. Probable cause must be shown, or consent must be given, or a sample must be in plain sight (thinking of CSI episode with a cigarette butt in the videogame ashtray).

The taking of DNA is subject to the Fourth Amendment rules, just like any other physical evidence: a warrant is ordinarily required, but there are many exceptions to the warrant requirement. If one's Fourth Amendment rights were violated, the remedy is that the government may not use evidence unlawfully obtained against you in its direct case at trial.

There is no Fifth Amendment self-incrimination issue, however (as explained above). That's a totally different issue.

Exceptions to the Fourth Amendment warrant requirement include such things as:

Consent -- you voluntarily consent to the search, the cops can search. (but can you voluntarily consent while in custody? or if coerced by the police? deceived by the police? what if a third party gives consent to search your stuff?)

Urgency -- in certain exceptional circumstances, the cops can search if they have probable cause, but getting a search warrant would take too long and the evidence would be lost. examples include cases where the evidence is about to be destroyed (you're flushing the coke down the toilet), or the evidence is changing (blood alcohol levels), or there's an emergency and the cops need to protect people from harm (you left a loaded gun in an apartment with a 6-year-old, or they think your luggage has a bomb in it), etc.

Hot pursuit -- the cops can chase you into your house (or anywhere else). this can be when they're chasing you and you slam the door in their face and they bust it down. or it could be when they follow a trail of bloodstains to your door and bust it down, though they hadn't been really "chasing" you.

Protective sweeps -- the cops can do a security check following certain kinds of arrests or other situations, to make sure there's no continuing danger to them or destruction of evidence.

Plain view -- if the police are where they are lawfully, which includes not just public places but also private places pursuant to a warrant or any of the above exceptions, and they happen to see evidence, then they are allowed to conduct a search and seizure. If he's on the fire escape or in an apartment bulding's hallway, and from there happens to see your crack stash in your apartment, he can bust in and seize it.

Arrest searches -- the cops are allowed to search you and the area within your immediate control following an arrest, to ensure their safety and to preserve evidence within your reach. this includes most of your car, if you were arrested in a car stop.

Administrative searches -- Administrative searches are conducted pursuant to regulations, and can be conducted without probable cause. These are allowed when privacy interests are fairly minimal, the government's interest is fairly substantial, and the inspecting agency has rules to make sure it doesn't go overboard. Heavily-regulated industries, occupations and things like public building security and public schools fall under this exception to the warrant requirement.

Airport and border searches -- these have been exceptions to the warrant requirement for a long time. Anyone crossing the border can be stopped and searched for no other reason than they're crossing the border (and airports count as border crossings).

Prisoners/parolees/probationers -- these people still have 4th Amendment rights, but they are diminished as a result of their status. So some searches without a warrant will be permissible here but wouldn't be okay if done against a typical citizen.

There are several more exceptions to the Fourth Amendment warrant requirement, but this post is rapidly turning into a treatise and you get the idea.
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Old 01-19-2005, 07:11 PM   #44
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I had a dream last night, that I got pulled over while driving in the town I used to live in. While I was out of the car waiting around (I forget what for), I noticed the policeman who pulled me over (he was a jerk) poking around in the front of the car. I asked if he had a warrant, and he said no, but he was going to definitely get one. I asked him how he intended to use it when the van was in Alabama (where I was driving to), as he started to open the back anyway. That's when Maverick, our huge black german sheperd (who happened to be on this trip with me in the dream) jumped out at him, barking his head off. The cop decided he could wait for his permit.

Later, for whatever reason, I got arrested. Woke up before I could figure out why.
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Old 02-25-2005, 01:41 PM   #45
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Seems to me like you must have been arrested for a hit-and-run, and the cop was picking pedestrian pieces out of your grille.
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Old 02-27-2005, 07:44 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbiggs
Personally, I doubt that I will ever invoke my 4th Amendement rights. I don't really break the law, so the police can search me if they want, if it helps them find a real criminal. But I don't like the general mentality in this country, which seems to be "If you have nothing to hide, why can't they search you?" I feel that everyone has SOMETHING to hide. Maybe I have gay porn in the back seat of my car. Legal? Yes. Something I want someone else seeing? No. Yeah, that's an extreme example, but I think that many people have something they don't want everyone in town to know about, and that we should have laws to protect them.
I'll bet you DO have gay porn in the back of your car don't ya? I bet you got necrophilia vids at home too. ****ing reprobates...
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Old 03-01-2005, 04:27 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeve_Mari
What if while searching your stuff to find a real criminal they find instead a key to your lockbox where you keep those special pictures? Okay that they just go check that out too? What if one of the searching officers happen to be your girlfriend's father or big, older brother? Still okay. I mean it is your personal library. Not anything illegal - just special.

Do you think that once you've voluntarily let them search your stuff, that you can later put qualifications on what/where they can search?
AFAIK, what you can do is revoke your permission for the search. They MUST stop at that point. If they continue, without probable cause from what they've found, it's invalid and thrown out. Whether you can stretch this to certain areas, I'm not sure. It would depend on the case law. You can probably limit the area, but not the scope, of the search.
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Old 03-05-2005, 02:45 AM   #48
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That sounds about right to me. Except that the scope of the search is limited by what they're looking for. I know that sounds tautological, but if they're looking for a firearm or weapons, they can't look in your film canister where you stored your pot, because it's hard to fit a gun into a film canister. If they're looking for drugs, well, you're screwed, because drugs can be hidden in pretty much anything.
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Old 03-05-2005, 03:25 PM   #49
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That's one of the reasons LE likes warrants to include paper or records of any kind. It's an open door to anything and everything.
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