01-12-2005, 02:04 PM
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#1 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Beaverton, OR, USA
Posts: 1,539
| Ooops.
Iraq WMD search ended
My first question is: why no press conference? Should the White House address the American people and let them know that we're safer, since Saddam didn't have any nukes?
Do investigative journalists even exist any more?? Thousands of the bravest Americans are casualties of war, not to mention the awful human toll on Iraqi civilians. The progenitors of this war are not forthcoming with their reasons for waging it. And if I'm casually browsing headlines, I get Rathergate, the Phoenix Suns, and the new iPod. To quote Chris Rock, "That ain't right!"
darius | 
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01-12-2005, 02:12 PM
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#2 | | Din Älskling
Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Somewhere inside your head. Or am I?
Posts: 4,196
| Hey! We still removed Sadam Hussein from power. That counts for something, doesn't it?  I mean, he was a direct threat to American-like interests, somehow, we think.
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01-12-2005, 02:22 PM
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#3 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,464
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Originally Posted by esskreemr Hey! We still removed Sadam Hussein from power. That counts for something, doesn't it? I mean, he was a direct threat to American-like interests, somehow, we think. | Maybe, well. At least the good people of Iraq are free from harm and intolerable living conditions.
Uh huh. | |
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01-12-2005, 02:28 PM
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#4 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Beaverton, OR, USA
Posts: 1,539
| Quote: |
Maybe, well. At least the good people of Iraq are free from harm and intolerable living conditions.
| Or freed from the condition of living.
"We don't do body counts." - Don Rumsfeld
darius | |
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01-12-2005, 02:31 PM
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#5 | | Din Älskling
Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Somewhere inside your head. Or am I?
Posts: 4,196
| Hey! We still removed Sadam Hussein from power. That counts for something, doesn't it? I mean, he was a direct threat to American-like interests, somehow, we think.
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"Since when does being a patriot in America mean shutting your mouth?"
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01-12-2005, 02:32 PM
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#6 | | Din Älskling
Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Somewhere inside your head. Or am I?
Posts: 4,196
| Heh, must've had that open in two windows.... 
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"Since when does being a patriot in America mean shutting your mouth?"
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01-12-2005, 02:37 PM
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#7 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,464
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by darius Or freed from the condition of living.
"We don't do body counts." - Don Rumsfeld
darius | Iraqi civilians the uncounted victims http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinio...jackson11.html Secretary of State Colin Powell tours tsunami-stricken Banda Aceh and says, "I cannot begin to imagine the horror that went through the families and all of the people who heard this noise coming and then had their lives snuffed out by this wave."
Richard Lugar, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, issued a resolution that said: "The tsunami disaster constitutes a humanitarian tragedy of incredible proportions. ... My heart goes out to the victims of this tragedy."
Last and hardly least, President Bush said: "The devastation in the region defies comprehension. ... Our flags will fly at half-staff to honor the victims of this disaster. We mourn especially the tens of thousands of children who are lost. We think of the tens of thousands more who will grow up without their parents or their brothers or their sisters. We hold in our prayers all the people whose fate is still unknown."
In the abstract, the outpouring was appropriate. In context, the sympathy was a stench unto itself. Tens of thousands of people die by an act of nature and we say we cannot imagine the horror. We say it defies comprehension. We call it a catastrophe.
In Iraq we kill off perhaps tens of thousands of innocent civilians with our own hands, and we reject any attempt to comprehend what we have done. Countless Iraqi civilians are homeless. We call it liberation.
Bush quoted all the numbers for the tsunami: 150,000 lives lost, including 90,000 in Indonesia; perhaps 5 million homeless; millions vulnerable to disease. That stands in hypocritical contrast to the refusal to count the Iraqi civilians killed in his invasion over false claims of weapons of mass destruction and the crime-ridden chaos of an occupation that did not plan on an "insurgency."
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and former Iraqi commander Tommy Franks both said, "We don't do body counts." Then, right in our faces, Powell said civilian casualty figures were "relatively low." Central Command spokesman Pete Mitchell hailed the invasion for its "unbelievably low amount of collateral damage and needless civilian death." Paul Bremer, Bush's former civilian reconstruction envoy, said, "We have freed people with one of the great military battles of all time, in a period of three weeks, with almost no collateral damage, very few civilian deaths, and they are now free."
The White House left the counting to journalists, doctors, think tanks and human rights groups. The numbers range from conservative guesses of 3,200 in the first few weeks of the war and occupation estimates ranging from 15,000 to 100,000. No matter if the number was 3,200 or 32,000, this atrocity of silence makes the torture in Abu Ghraib pale in comparison.
No flags have been flown at half-staff for Iraqi civilians. There have been no moments of silence in Congress. There have been no speeches by Bush mourning "the tens of thousands of children who are lost." Americans have not been asked to think of the "tens of thousands more who will grow up without their parents or their brothers or their sisters."
In a nation that supposedly re-elected Bush on "moral values," there have been no prayers from the White House for "all the people whose fate is still unknown" in Iraq. This was a bipartisan hypocrisy. Even Nancy Pelosi, the House Democratic leader, fell into the trap of favoritism, fueling the appearance that this war was a religious crusade.
At the beginning of the war she said, "We pray for the swift and successful disarmament of Iraq with the least possible loss of life among our forces and the civilians of Iraq." But then she closed her message with: "May God bless our courageous forces and their brave families. May God bless the president of the United States. And may God bless America."
Not once did Pelosi or any American politician say in the last two years, "God bless Iraqi civilians" or any variant. Only one time has Bush uttered "God bless the people of Iraq," and that was in announcing Saddam Hussein's capture. Not once has he asked God's blessing for the courageous civilians and the families of Iraq who had no choice but to brave our bombs.
Let us do what we can for the victims of the tsunami. But no matter how much we weep for them, no matter what donations we spare, the offerings will not spare us from history's judgment, if not God's. Lugar said his heart goes out to the victims of the tsunami. No hearts have gone out to Iraqi civilians in this heartless cover-up.
Powell said of the tsunami, "The power of the wave to destroy bridges, to destroy factories, to destroy homes, to destroy crops, to destroy everything in its path is amazing." He said, "I have never seen anything like it in my experience."
Yes, he has. It was in Iraq. The tsunami was us. | |
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01-12-2005, 03:55 PM
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#8 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,091
| Not even going to touch this one... | |
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01-12-2005, 04:37 PM
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#9 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Carstairs, AB, Canada
Posts: 3,412
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Originally Posted by Maeve_Mari | Well d'uh. One was an act of God the other an act of Congress. Rightly, we should pray to God for the victims of the Tsunami and to Congress for the victims of Iraq. Hmmm, wonder if I can get "acts of Congress" in my life insurance policy...
*grin*
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01-12-2005, 05:25 PM
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#10 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New Jersey
Posts: 5,070
| It must be that liberal-slanted news media we hear so much about, preventing this story from being highlighted. I'm sure this will be properly covered by O'Reilly or Hannity, who will subject it to all the outrage they're typically able to muster.
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01-13-2005, 12:24 AM
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#11 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: MA
Posts: 7,458
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Originally Posted by darius My first question is: why no press conference? Should the White House address the American people and let them know that we're safer, since Saddam didn't have any nukes? |
The White House is denying any wrongdoing in Iraq, because people trust the President. On the other hand, getting caught in a lie would leave them worse than before. So the best solution for them is to keep mistakes quiet, and let them spread around liberals, who aren't Bush supporters anyway. | |
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01-13-2005, 04:39 AM
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#13 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
Posts: 23,475
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Originally Posted by esskreemr Heh, must've had that open in two windows.... | What, you voted twice?! You must be one of those wicked Republicans...  | |
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01-13-2005, 04:42 AM
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#14 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
Posts: 23,475
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Originally Posted by Soldier Not even going to touch this one... | Might as well not bother, you wouldn't be heard over the keenings about how everything Bush does is wicked and horrid and LALALALALALALA! | |
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01-13-2005, 05:52 AM
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#15 | | Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 271
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Originally Posted by Maeve_Mari [b]
The White House left the counting to journalists, doctors, think tanks and human rights groups. The numbers range from conservative guesses of 3,200 in the first few weeks of the war and occupation estimates ranging from 15,000 to 100,000. No matter if the number was 3,200 or 32,000, this atrocity of silence makes the torture in Abu Ghraib pale in comparison.
[/indent] | Civilian casualties are an unfortunate side to war, but surely no clear thinking person believes that the US military was going out of its way to maximize the pain and suffering inflicted upon the Iraqi civillian. Although I have not seen any numbers, I would guess that the number of Iraqi innocents killed accidently by the US is less than the number of Iraqis killed intentionally by the terrorist/insurgents. Their actions are the true atrocities being commited. | |
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01-13-2005, 06:17 AM
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#16 | | Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 271
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Originally Posted by darius | Which best describes your feelings?
1- Yeah! No WMDs existed, so its unlikely that terrorist will be able to use them to kill me.
2- Yeah! No WMDs were found, so the USA (i.e. President Bush) looks very bad.
3- Hmmn. No WMDs were found. Is our Intelligence agencies (and the rest of the worlds) really that incompetent?
4- Hmmn. No WMDs were found. Should I be worried that they were moved elsewhere (e.g. Syria) and that bad people may yet get their hands on them?
Sorry, but I don't know how to start a poll. Maybe somebody else can. | |
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01-13-2005, 09:46 AM
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#17 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,464
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Originally Posted by L.O.A.S. Civilian casualties are an unfortunate side to war, but surely no clear thinking person believes that the US military was going out of its way to maximize the pain and suffering inflicted upon the Iraqi civillian. Although I have not seen any numbers, I would guess that the number of Iraqi innocents killed accidently by the US is less than the number of Iraqis killed intentionally by the terrorist/insurgents. Their actions are the true atrocities being commited. | The initial comment which prompted my post was Rumsfeld's "We don't count bodies", not whether there was an intention to inflict pain on innocents and civilians. (Although the prisoner treatment trials may reveal more information on that in the coming weeks.) Overall I agree that there are many unfortunate sides to war, but for the purposes of this discussion, we as a great and compassionate nation do look injudicious and short-sighted to be blessing and praying for the Tsunami victims while not for the civilian victims of Iraq. | |
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01-13-2005, 09:48 AM
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#18 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,464
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Originally Posted by Inquartata Might as well not bother, you wouldn't be heard over the keenings about how everything Bush does is wicked and horrid and LALALALALALALA! | I'm sorry, Inq. I was humming loudly and couldn't hear you.  | |
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01-13-2005, 10:05 AM
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#19 | | Din Älskling
Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Somewhere inside your head. Or am I?
Posts: 4,196
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Originally Posted by L.O.A.S. I would guess that the number of Iraqi innocents killed accidently by the US is less than the number of Iraqis killed intentionally by the terrorist/insurgents. Their actions are the true atrocities being commited. | Part of the problem lies with the way deaths attributable to the war in Iraq are reported. There is a deliberate attempt to mislead people concerning how many actual deaths there are on both sides. Remember the "ruckus" over the fact that pictures of flag-draped coffins has leaked to the press?
If the true shock and horror of war is too great for the American people to handle, maybe we should reconsider our "defensive" strategies. The hard questions that they shuffled to the side are now coming back and answering themselves. With each answer the sound bite that we went to war for a Just Cause is quickly turning into we went to war just 'cause we wanted to...
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01-13-2005, 10:24 AM
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#20 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New Jersey
Posts: 5,070
| Is the point of those saying "no big deal" here, that in fact it was no big deal for the leading casus belli for the war to be shown to be false? Same for the "lay up" and "sure thing" rhetoric about WMD to be counter-factual exaggerations to the point of falsehood? Ditto for Colin Powell's UN presentation ("that picture shows a WMD facility") was also a false statement? That attitude seems to me to be a shocking abandonment of accountability, especially when the consequence has been thousand of lives. How can this be a "who care? No big deal!" issue? 
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