Rough Luck against new people

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Alright, as of late, I've been fencing some of the club newbies. I can beat them, but usually not by a very good score. Their form is terrible, they're out of control, and I just cant seem to really stomp them. I generally do very well against the C's and D's and B's in my club, but against the newbies, I do very poorly. Does anyone else have trouble against newbies that have the 'wild style'?

[mrbiggs]

Yep. Not so much in epee, actually. My oppositions are strong and fast enough that I can usually beat such people with just that move.

[ThatReallyHurt]

Are you maybe going too easy on them because they're newbies and you don't want to discourage them, or perhaps are you being too fancy - trying things that would normally prompt a particular reaction from an experienced fencer, but a newbie doesn't know how to counter and just attacks into?

[mlr2fence]

Newbies are just that--wild and unpredictable, and that causes problems. They flail enough that they will get touches. Patience, keep distance and look for that big action that leaves an opening.

[JJ2005]

Yes, I also have problems fencing newbies. I think their understanding of RoA is one of the main problems. They're just on the strip swinging away wildly. I watch my distance and try to get them with a fast parry/riposte.

[Craig]

That's called the scrub factor. Many a fencer (esp. in epee) has been toasted by a "scrub" - mainly due to the fact that they just don't know how they are supposed to react.

You do a feint and instead of falling back and making a parry like they should, they attack into you and take you by surprise.

The key to fencing "scrubs" (newbies, novices, whatever term you want to use) is to keep it simple. That will make you focus on your simple actions and give them fencing at their level to train against.

Cheers,
Craig

[LordTofuDog-jnr]

Originally Posted by Craig

That's called the scrub factor. Many a fencer (esp. in epee) has been toasted by a "scrub" - mainly due to the fact that they just don't know how they are supposed to react.

You do a feint and instead of falling back and making a parry like they should, they attack into you and take you by surprise.

The key to fencing "scrubs" (newbies, novices, whatever term you want to use) is to keep it simple. That will make you focus on your simple actions and give them fencing at their level to train against.

Cheers,
Craig

I agree and concur all at once!

[Welted 24/7]

Pretty much what Craig said. New people don't have the slightest clue of tactical thinking yet, so they won't recognize what you're trying to do, and won't react to it the way they should. As a result, you're left thinking why your tactically brilliant trap didn't work and you got hit by somebody who only last month learned how to lunge.

Like it was already said, you pretty much just need to keep it as basic as possible. Let them do the work of opening themselves up for you instead of trying to create openings, because they don't know enough to fall for it. The problem is that people start getting frustrated when somebody so far below their ability level is getting these horrible looking touches that have no planning on them, so they start fencing even harder to beat them. The trick is to just have patience and wait for them to screw themselves over. Give them an opportunity, and when they take it(because they always will until they know better) with an action that leaves them wide open, THEN you go in and take your touch.

I just got over this issue recently myself. I used to lose to people in pools that I should have annihilated, and then get stuck with a lousy seed in the DEs. That happened to me in Charlotte this year. In terms of actual ability, I probably could have finished in the top 8 of div 3 and at least in the double digits of div 2, but I fell prey to "Scrub Syndrome" in the pools. My coach once said that my greatest talent was fighting my way out of ****holes, but I'd get the results I was actually capable of getting if I wasn't in them to begin with.

[Grasshopper]

Tlc - No Scrub Lyrics
A scrub is a guy that thinks hes fine and is also known as a
buster
Always thinkin' about what he wants
He just sits on his (oh his, on his, on his)
So...(no)


I don't want your number (no)
I don't wanna give you mine and (no)
I don't wanna meet you no where (no)
I don't want none of your time and (no)

I don't want no scrub,
A scrub is a guy that can't get no love from me,
Hanging out the passenger side,
Of his best friends ride,
Trying to hollar at me.

I don't want no scrub,
A scrub is a guy that can't get no love from me,
Hanging out the passenger side,
Of his best friends ride,
Trying to hollar at me.


And a scrubs is checkin' me,
But his game is kinda weak,
And I know he can't approach me,
Cause I"m looking like class and he's looking like trash,
Can't get wit' a deadbeat (deadbeat)
So...(no)

[Alain]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Alright, as of late, I've been fencing some of the club newbies. I can beat them, but usually not by a very good score. Their form is terrible, they're out of control, and I just cant seem to really stomp them. I generally do very well against the C's and D's and B's in my club, but against the newbies, I do very poorly. Does anyone else have trouble against newbies that have the 'wild style'?

Fencing new people can always be a challenge, especially in épée with the lack of ROW. The key to fencing 'em, as already pointed out, is to keep things simple. Try to keep a good distance, too. In your head, you need to say something like "OI, don't make any mistakes!" - make sure that you're patient over every hit, and take the game 1 hit at a time.

Bonne chance!

[The Armourer]

Picking up on the point that Craig made an amusing story. Two fencers that knew each other well fenced in the DE of a UK Open Mens epee competition some years back and the higher seed lost. They were mates and on talking over the fight the loser said you didnt go for the feints like you usually do - the winner replied that he had not had time to put his contact lenses back in so could not see them!!! Made all the difference

[esskreemr]

Hopefully to add to Craig's:
The key to owning noobs is to remember that their skills are light and they tend to be skittish. When you're fencing dry, that's the time to act casual, allow them to even the score, even if you have to handicap yourself (assume defense only, assume offense only, particular counterattack), take it easy have fun.

When you hook up on a strip, that's when you must shift your mentality to every point counts. After you have taken them in a few 5-0, 5-1 bouts, they will hold back and become more predictable. When your hooked into a machine, it's good to always focus on winning no matter who stands opposite to you. You have to be confident in your ability to beat them and you must finish each bout completely, not peter off at the end to let them "catch up". Hook up, Salute, beat them, next fencer please.

Leave the poking around for fun for warmups and late club sessions. If you step on the strip with a "I'll give them a few points to give them an ego boost", your teaching yourself to give up points and giving them a false sense of their abilities. In addition, their added confidence will plague you the next time you fence them.

A little draconian, but it works.

[Mr Epee]

A fencing bout is a conversation.

Actions/skills are your vocabulary, and experience/tactics are your grammar.

Fencers at lower levels haven't learned the language yet, and can be very difficult to communicate with directly.

[Irensaga]

One thing I noticed that beginner fencers tend to do (specifically male beginning fencers) is to come off the starting line flailing away as if their life depended on it.

Instead of using timing, distance, tactics and point control, they try for the surprise factor and just charge while stabbing furiously hoping they'll get lucky. Sometimes it works (as it seems to have in your case).

The best way to counter this is to slow them down. Get them to fence more carefully. Then they'll be playing your game. How do you do this?

OK, visualize the situation: the director says "fence" and Mr. Wild-and-Crazy comes charging at you stabbing like he's going into seizures. At this point, simply retreat in a controlled fashion and do a fast, exagerrated counter attack. The trick is to make sure that you're out of his striking range when you execute this. Sure, you aren't going to hit him. But he doesn't know that.

The point of this is not to score, but to remind him of his own mortality. This is why you have to make sure he sees it coming. He doesn't have a good enough sense of distance to realize that your counter isn't a threat and it will probably stop him cold and completely throw off his momentum. At this point, you can do one of two things:

1. Completely run him down and nail him ... hard.

2. Toy with him. Keep countering and faking him out until his every move is orchestrated by you. Keep him on constant defensive. Eventually, he'll over-extend and then you nail him, preferably in a humiliating fashion.

Whichever method you choose, he'll gain a healthy respect for you and will approach you much more carefully in the future. These tactics are the equivalent of throwing a bucket of ice water on the new guy. This is why hitting him painfully, humiliatingly, and with an appropriate attitude of contempt is important. He has to realize that he's been fencing like an idiot.

Note: I'm not advocating acting like a jerk. You only do this in the first couple of matches. Once he's sufficiently humbled and is fencing properly, you can then start going easy on him and offer friendly advice, or whatever.

Newbies NEED to be put in their place early. Otherwise it interferes with their learning, results in a lot of unnecessary bruises at the club, and risks snapped blades and dangerous body contact. So if you get a wild man, don't try to shelter his ego. String him out and make him look foolish. Then you can all fence like normal people.

Our college club just got an whole crop of newbies a few months ago and alot of the guys tried to use the "wild style" on me. They're all fencing much more carefully now.

[Rolls]

1) Be patient. There's a feeling that you should be able to finish a beginner quickly. It's better to be patient and fence with the same attitude/analytical thinking you would use against that D, C or B. It's better to win 1-0 than 15-14.

2) Keep attacks simple. The longer/more complex your attack gets, the more opportunity you give the person to react in an unpredictable manner.

3) Look for the weakness. Beginners usually have a critical flaw. Look for it. Once you find one, you can often get the remainder of the points on the same action. (In epee, many beginners don't extend or protect the arm properly).

4) Don't feel like you have to do all the attacking. Beginners usually score points on wild attacks/remises/repostes at unexpected times (usually when you expect them to defend against your attack). Let them attack some. Their attacks will most likely be poorly developed and fail easily, setting you up for an easy riposte.

Also, I think it is important to limit the time you spend fencing them. Go to a certain score, or have someone time you, but don't fence them for an indefinite time. You would likely get bored anyway.

Rolls.

[drippingwet]

I don't have problem with new people. If you just lunge at them, or parry riposte, I don't see any problem. Are you fencing them in a complicated way? On the other hand, I'm not sure that means to say that marching down a newb will get you scored on either, as long as you're marching properly. I mean, what would they do, go for an instinctive AIP? Well counter-attack/AIP is one of the things that a march feeds on. But the things in between simple and march fencing might not have a high percentage of success against newbs.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by drippingwet

I don't have problem with new people. If you just lunge at them, or parry riposte, I don't see any problem. Are you fencing them in a complicated way? On the other hand, I'm not sure that means to say that marching down a newb will get you scored on either, as long as you're marching properly. I mean, what would they do, go for an instinctive AIP? Well counter-attack/AIP is one of the things that a march feeds on. But the things in between simple and march fencing might not have a high percentage of success against newbs.

Its epee, "marching" in epee, is not really a deal. I am fencing them the way I would fence a really good fencer, and they most certainly are not reacting the way I expect.

[LordTofuDog-jnr]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Its epee, "marching" in epee, is not really a deal. I am fencing them the way I would fence a really good fencer, and they most certainly are not reacting the way I expect.

Well all of the above posts talk about dealing with that problem so you should be fine in the end.

I've fenced Epee once and it was at a n00b competition, not one of them came close to beating my marches; they'd all stick there arm out and I'd just bind the blade and finish, I know that wouldn't work at remotely good levels but like you said you're not fencing high level people are you.

[bwoodward]

Originally Posted by Irensaga

One thing I noticed that beginner fencers tend to do (specifically male beginning fencers) is to come off the starting line flailing away as if their life depended on it.

I saw this exact thing two nights ago at my club and have been thinking about it - I can't believe you're writing about it. Young beginning male fencer "A" comes charging at young beginning female fencer "B". "A" is aggressively trying all his special moves - feinting, beating, fleches, you name it. "B" just stood there and used the two moves she was good at - parry, riposte. She ate his lunch.

[LordTofuDog-jnr]

Originally Posted by bwoodward

She ate his lunch.

No wonder he was charging her down!