disengages

[glowstix]

ok, in foil, my opponents seem to be sniffing out my disengages these days (thus making for some really long bouts..). i attack into 4 attempting a disengage to try to hit into 6 but they still catch me with a 6 parry. i need to get back to basics on the disengage in terms of mechanics. are there any drills/suggestions to rectify this problem???

also, i need to get more creative in my method of attacks. i'm relying on the same type of attacks too much these days.

[ReverseLunge]

Try a coupe instead.

Who the hell does a disengage anymore these days?

[akaiyuki]

If they catch you with a 6 parry, why not go disengage from 6 to 4 instead? Disengage doesn't have to be from 4 to 6, could go from 4 to 7, or even 4 to 8. See which one your opponent is less perpared for.
I don't see why your oppoents will be going for a parry 6 if you are fainting to 4, unless they just like doing parry 6's or it could be that you're not fainting to 4 well enough for your oppoent to believe that you're going for a straight on attack to 4.

[cowpaste]

I agree with RL here. I feel that disengages are less useful in modern foil. I disengage every once in awhile, but I mostly gave up trying to do it consistently because a few circular parries would usually catch any disengages I tried. Instead, I feint or coupé.

[VELISARIOS]

Try to do feints. Try to confuse your oponent. For example you can do a simple advance in 6 with enouph force to provoke a parry from your oponent. So 95% he will do the same think if you do the same attack again, so if your oponent do the same disangage quikcly and you win. But you must be carefull.

[LordTofuDog-jnr]

New timings = disengaging, that means if you aren't any good at it then you'd better learn, simple really.

[Alain]

Originally Posted by glowstix

i need to get back to basics on the disengage in terms of mechanics. are there any drills/suggestions to rectify this problem???

Yeah, use your fingers more, and try not to use your wrist/arm. Not only will your movement be quicker, but it will also be less obvious to your opponent.

Also, in terms of the technique itself... people often view a disengage as a circular movement, which is fine. But there's a much quicker way of doing the same movement, where you simply lower your point - using your fingers - as your opponent attempts to parry, and then raise it and continue your attack. The straight line (or elongated triangle) is a shorter distance and therefore quicker...

Hope this helps

[LordTofuDog-jnr]

Originally Posted by Alain

Yeah, use your fingers more, and try not to use your wrist/arm. Not only will your movement be quicker, but it will also be less obvious to your opponent.

Also, in terms of the technique itself... people often view a disengage as a circular movement, which is fine. But there's a much quicker way of doing the same movement, where you simply lower your point - using your fingers - as your opponent attempts to parry, and then raise it and continue your attack. The straight line (or elongated triangle) is a shorter distance and therefore quicker...

Hope this helps

No, no and no..

The disengage is a semi-circular action - as the opponent moves to engage your blade you lower your weapon slightly whilst quickly moving it in a horizontal motion. E.g, the blade goes down and across, once that action is complete you make sure your weapon ends up in the same plane of height that it started in.

Of course you can't just disengage and then lunge, whilst the disengage is taking place you should be moving the tip of the weapon forward so as to reach the opponent quickly.

Down, across and forward all at once.

The idea that the disengage is a circle implies that it makes an entire 360 degree movement and that would not only waste a lot of time but would make the disengage more akin to a taking.

To perform a good disengage you must move the point ENTIRELY with your fingers and not with your wrist AT ALL. To practice that I suggest holding your grip (assuming pistol) extra tight to minimize wrist motion until the fingers only motion comes naturally.

Now before people say "hold your grip like a bird, not to tight to squidge it and not to lightly to let it get away" I only think you should hold the grip tightly WHILST performing the disengage hit.

[esskreemr]

Check your timing. Maybe your footwork is giving the disengage away.

Try a double, if they are parrying your feint you should still retain prority.

Introduce a beat.

Try a few half-hearted disengages and then do a very fast straight lunge.

The idea is to get a predictable reaction from them, not allow them to predict your action. You are either telegraphing your disengage or you are predictable, two very bad things.

[davtsung]

If you are disengaging too early, i.e. if you have already committed yourself to disengaging, you simply give away the element of surprise. Try lunging WITHOUT immediate full extension or point movement (holding your disengage), and disengage at the last commitable moment (i.e. your opponent starts to parry 4 or 6).

Some people advocate larger motions to really try to 'sell' the the disengage, especially if you are doing two. Other people swear by smaller movements. I think, as always, it will depend heavily on what your opponent is like.

[epeezack]

Your probly making them too big, thats why your opponites can see them.
Small circles and fast wrist.

[jeff]

I wouldn't worry about the make-a-semicircle vs. down-and-up mechanics too much (at the edges they blur into one another anyway). I would focus more on accelerating the point forward and increasing speed through the disengage. The point should be penetrating and the tempo should be getting faster.

I second esskreemr's comments: if they're picking up your disengage, change the lines, make a double or a one-two. Mix them up and do false attacks so they're not predictable. Set them up with beats - a beat-disenage is a thing of beauty, especially with a strong beat to provoke the lateral parry

[achilleus]

There are several points here.

1) You can't use the same action forever. Your opponents eventually catch on. In these cases, it doesn't matter how great your technique is, you'll still get hit. A super small, tight, fast, in front disengage can still parried. You need to develop a variety of attacks and techniques to avoid getting hit. I really endorse the idea of using a one two, or a coupe or something else entirely...

2) When the attack with disengage fails it's because of poor preparation (Distance, timing, not predictable) and/or execution (Too big, slow, etc...). Since you've had success with it before, I doubt it's totally the execution, but more likely the preparation. Consider the distance and timing. If you opponent has time to make 2 parries before you hit, either their controling the distance well, or their making their first parry early so as to catch you in the second. So, again look for other options, or change the distance.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I suggest going deeper. It may be that you're not actually attacking the quarte target.... go for it! Attack in quarte, and when you see them parry, disengage to sixte, and go in. If your just moving your blade under theirs, it looks like your changing lines and attacking, try changing lines when they parry, but before their blade makes contact. Eh, I know it doesnt make sense.

A lesson for this might look like:

A= Attacker
D=Defender (the coach)

A-Attack in quarte
D=Parry Quarte
A=Disengage around parry and hit in Septe

Alot of coaches train the students to disengage automatically, when IMHO, you're only supposed to disengage if the Defender actually attempts a parry. Another thing I might add, is that a disengage is an exploitation of a wide parry, so you need to attack fast and furiously, in the aim of destroying someones concentration, and that hopefully they will make a frantic and wide parry. Tis my two cents not counting inflation

[remise]

Disengages have become the bread and butter of my arsenal. I make a "V" when I disengage, but I count on timing also to 'set' my attack. A few weeks of practice and back to basics will help you see what the others here are saying - vary the attack.

[veeco]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Alot of coaches train the students to disengage automatically, when IMHO, you're only supposed to disengage if the Defender actually attempts a parry.

Well, yes and no. There is a difference between actually making a disengage in response to a parry, and anticipating it. Both can be used and should be taught when reaching a certain level. Another thing is that a properly done disengage (small enough, done from the right distance and at the right time) should hit regardless of whether the opponent tries to parry or not. Your opponent's lack of a parry should not prevent the disengage to hit. (It might not give you right of way, though).

A good preparation and setup of the action can make it possible to do the anticipated disengage thing with a high success rate. For example, if you just scored a couple of straight attacks in you opponent's 4, it might be worth it on the next touch to setup the same action, but instead of finishing straight in 4, do the disengage in 6.

Regarding the disengage in reaction to a parry, one has to make sure it is done with the point continuously progressing forward, as any break in the forward progression of the point means that your opponent's parry as more chance to find your blade. This error happens a lot with beginners. I see a lot of beginners who concentrate so much on the disengage and the action of their blades that they forget that the actual goal of the disengage is still to hit your opponent, and to do that you have to go forward!

Basically this is due to the brain separating the disengage into 2 actions: a disengage and then a hit, whereas it should be disengage-hit in one action. Otherwise the disengage hasn't made you gain anything. You're neither closer nor further to hit your opponent.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Veeco, what I'm chiming against is the teaching of a disengage simply for the sake of disengaging. If you can hit without disengaging, then why disengage?

Originally Posted by veeco

Well, yes and no. There is a difference between actually making a disengage in response to a parry, and anticipating it. Both can be used and should be taught when reaching a certain level. Another thing is that a properly done disengage (small enough, done from the right distance and at the right time) should hit regardless of whether the opponent tries to parry or not. Your opponent's lack of a parry should not prevent the disengage to hit. (It might not give you right of way, though).

A good preparation and setup of the action can make it possible to do the anticipated disengage thing with a high success rate. For example, if you just scored a couple of straight attacks in you opponent's 4, it might be worth it on the next touch to setup the same action, but instead of finishing straight in 4, do the disengage in 6.

Regarding the disengage in reaction to a parry, one has to make sure it is done with the point continuously progressing forward, as any break in the forward progression of the point means that your opponent's parry as more chance to find your blade. This error happens a lot with beginners. I see a lot of beginners who concentrate so much on the disengage and the action of their blades that they forget that the actual goal of the disengage is still to hit your opponent, and to do that you have to go forward!

Basically this is due to the brain separating the disengage into 2 actions: a disengage and then a hit, whereas it should be disengage-hit in one action. Otherwise the disengage hasn't made you gain anything. You're neither closer nor further to hit your opponent.

[veeco]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Veeco, what I'm chiming against is the teaching of a disengage simply for the sake of disengaging. If you can hit without disengaging, then why disengage?

I see, well, for one thing, it might be introduced in the lesson as a technical (not tactical) element, to actually teach how to disengage to a student. It doesn't mean that this is an action that will be something that the student can and should use in bouting, but it can be a way to introduce the disengage in a particular context to make it easier to grok, or execute for the student.

[LordTofuDog-jnr]

My coach, when he's teaching disengages, will check the quality of the students disengage by seeing if they cross.

E.g - Student throws in a feint
- Coach doesn't attempt the parry
- Student disengages whilst moving their blade forward (hopefully)

If the student has done the action with the right timing then their blade will make contact with my coach's blade, it will "cross" from its initial position and will end up touching his blade on the outside of his target. Works wonders for me.

[drippingwet]

Some people might say that at higher level you can make a disengage on demand, even if your original intention was for a direct attack. I'm not qualified to question that possibility, but it would be interesting to learn how to do if it is possible!!!