disengages

[mrbiggs]

It might be that there's nothing wrong with your disengages, and that your opponents are predicting your moves. This may be by subtle clues in your fencing, or because you do the same move over and over.

Of course, there's no way to tell without watching you, but try to experiment with changing things up----feint the disengage, then finish, for example.

[veeco]

Originally Posted by drippingwet

Some people might say that at higher level you can make a disengage on demand, even if your original intention was for a direct attack. I'm not qualified to question that possibility, but it would be interesting to learn how to do if it is possible!!!

It takes a long time to master. I started working on this about 1 1/2 years ago, and I can't say I am really good at it. I can just start to use it in bouts.

The key here is to be able to "decoordinate" your hands and your feet. You want to start your attack as a straight attack would, with extension of the arm and lunge, but during the lunge, you have to keep paying attention to your target while taking notice of your opponent's bell/blade movements in your peripheral vision. Any movement must trigger a trained response to disengage.

All of this while you're -hopefully- flying mid-air to execute a lunge.
Some very good fencers can even do 1-2-3 hand actions for one foot action (lunge)

[edew]

Making disengages on the fly is a really tough thing to master. One must be cool and relaxed, but not so much that a simple parry catches the person unawares.

It takes time to develop that loosy-goosy attitude plus constant vigilance.

For me, most of my successful attacks are done with either a simple straight attack or with a slight simple disengage. Every once in a while, I throw in a big whopping multi-feint action to raise my opponent's heart rate a bit.

Your best help for a good disengage is distance. Not too far, not too close. Not too fast, not too slow. Easy to say, really, really tough to master.

[remise]

Veeco -

Reading your posts for a while was one of the reasons I switched from my German grips to the French grip. I had to relearn fencing, if you will, almost up from scratch, as using a French grip requires an entirely different 'game'. It is coming along quite nicely now (I am approaching my 1 year mark with the French grip).

My coach began teaching me the power of the disengage almost immediately. And something else called posting. While I am still learning both of these techniques, they are a thing a beauty and I will never return to a pistol grip.

[edew]

I would agree that the german grip will not help much in making disengages. That grip is poorly designed for disengaging. However, the french grip isn't, either.

Either the belgian or the italian visconti are better for making disengages.

[veeco]

While I have never used a German grip, I have used Belgian and French grips, and didn't find any difference in their relative abilities to make disengages with them.

[glowstix]

hey, why is my discussion turning to grips??

btw, i use a russian grip. with this grip, movements are small and with the fingers. not too many russian grips around...mostly visconti.
and after further review, its my timing on the disengages thats the problem. yesterday i was able to hit again with the disengages, i was just a bit out of sorts for awhile with the timing.

also, vecco, i really can't use the french grip, sorry. my disengages were horrible, out of control, and really big. instead of being "tight, small circles", their shape resembled something that looked like what would result from a person trying to draw a circle with their off hand. i'm sticking to russian.

[veeco]

Originally Posted by glowstix

also, vecco, i really can't use the french grip, sorry. my disengages were horrible, out of control, and really big. instead of being "tight, small circles", their shape resembled something that looked like what would result from a person trying to draw a circle with their off hand. i'm sticking to russian.

It's because you are in denial :-)

[LordTofuDog-jnr]

I've been learning disengages for around 6 months [before that it wasn't serious, now 60% of my lessons are said action] and I'm already learning to disengage on demand, not a lot but it seems to happen in those 12-12 situations so I'm happy with that. w007 for me.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by veeco

It's because you are in denial :-)

i'm in denial about a lot of things but grip is not one of them.

[MikeHarm]

This is one of the things I do that is a little unorthodox (at least I haven't seen it covered in tactics anywhere) but its worked wonderfully for me.

Use false disengages and false coupes in addition to your direct attacks and real disengages/coupes. Now instead of a situation where the opponent is deciding which of two actions you're doing they have three. I've had opponents who weren't used to this have their game fall completely apart before when I kept switching it up on them.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by MikeHarm

This is one of the things I do that is a little unorthodox (at least I haven't seen it covered in tactics anywhere) but its worked wonderfully for me.

Use false disengages and false coupes in addition to your direct attacks and real disengages/coupes. Now instead of a situation where the opponent is deciding which of two actions you're doing they have three. I've had opponents who weren't used to this have their game fall completely apart before when I kept switching it up on them.

whats a false disengage and false coupe??

[FoilyGeezer]

Originally Posted by glowstix

and after further review, its my timing on the disengages thats the problem. yesterday i was able to hit again with the disengages, i was just a bit out of sorts for awhile with the timing.

Ideally, a good disengage doesn't begin until you're opponents hand starts moving to parry the initial line of attack. Awareness of when/if your opponent is commiting to a parry is key in having unstoppable disengages. The longer you can delay the movement the greater chance it will suceed. If you've gotten in the mindframe of "Well I'm going to feint six and disengage to four" then you're probably making it too mechanical, and probably too early.

[MikeHarm]

You do the action like you were going to do a nice coupe/disengage with the fingers (or like your normal one), but instead of changing lines it goes straight forward to target in the same line. If they always figure out you're doing a disengage and parry in the right line to stop the real attack its great because you take advantage of them 'seeing through your feint' and they end up in the wrong line. It ends up effectively the same as doing a double disengage but with one motion instead of two so I always thought it was more efficient. That and you can do it faster because you have less to do.

I had a fencing bout I did once with a historical fencer where I unloaded like 30 touches in a row on him just switching between real and false disengage attacks for my attacks.

David Wayt showed it to me in a sabre incarnation. I think he's running a salle in North Carolina these days.

Originally Posted by glowstix

whats a false disengage and false coupe??

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by MikeHarm

You do the action like you were going to do a nice coupe/disengage with the fingers (or like your normal one), but instead of changing lines it goes straight forward to target in the same line. If they always figure out you're doing a disengage and parry in the right line to stop the real attack its great because you take advantage of them 'seeing through your feint' and they end up in the wrong line. It ends up effectively the same as doing a double disengage but with one motion instead of two so I always thought it was more efficient. That and you can do it faster because you have less to do.

I had a fencing bout I did once with a historical fencer where I unloaded like 30 touches in a row on him just switching between real and false disengage attacks for my attacks.

David Wayt showed it to me in a sabre incarnation. I think he's running a salle in North Carolina these days.

i think i understand..i've been trying something like a double disengage too and i think this might be whats having the bad effect on my single disengages. for my "double disengage", i've been attacking into an open line but but instead of waiting to do the disengage, i'll change to the opposite line so that my opponent will think i'm disengaging too soon. for example, they'll be en guarde in 6, i'll attack into 4 when the slightest movement begins, i'll attempt to disengage into 6, knowing they think they'll catch my blade then i do another disengage back into 4 and eventually hit into 4. seems like overkill where a properly timed disengage would probably have worked in the first place but i think i developed this move for the days i don't time the single disengage as well as i should.

[MikeHarm]

Have you tried with your double disengages making one of the disengages a false disengage? Thats a good one too.

Originally Posted by glowstix

i think i understand..i've been trying something like a double disengage too and i think this might be whats having the bad effect on my single disengages. for my "double disengage", i've been attacking into an open line but but instead of waiting to do the disengage, i'll change to the opposite line so that my opponent will think i'm disengaging too soon. for example, they'll be en guarde in 6, i'll attack into 4 when the slightest movement begins, i'll attempt to disengage into 6, knowing they think they'll catch my blade then i do another disengage back into 4 and eventually hit into 4. seems like overkill where a properly timed disengage would probably have worked in the first place but i think i developed this move for the days i don't time the single disengage as well as i should.

[Tiwaz]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

Try a coupe instead.

Who the hell does a disengage anymore these days?

Well me for one and most of my students. A disengage is just as effective as a Coupe but I think the prblem here is that he/she is using the disengage far too often try to avoid the disengage whilst fencing this person.