Parrying at the last second

[grotto]

Being able to parry later in the attack is connected to how well you can control the distance. Here is a drill I learned from a much better coach than I. one fencer has a weapon and tries to hit their partner. the other fencer has no weapon and must maintain distance so the attack does not arrive. the goal is to have your opponent miss, but just miss with the point being 1-2 inches from target. if the attacker hits they win, if you are "out of distance (say 4 or more inches) they win. you win by being as close to your opponents blade without being hit. This progresses to where you have a blade as well and get to parry repost but only parry repost. you will find you can parry much later into the attack and even choose the timing of the parry to change the tempo as you get better with the drill. As alway start this drill slowly and work on good form and legwork, speeding up as you get better. Speed is secondary in drills, being able to see and learn the distance is the important part.

[dramamine]

I agree with others who said set up the action. I think it's less that you should be thinking "parry at the end, wait for the end" and more that you should be thinking "make it end".

Try a false parry maybe, say your opponent is pushing you (absence of blade) you can make a counter 6 parry and slow down your retreats a bit to draw the finish, then take an extra step and make your 4/riposte or whatever you like.

[Craig]

That was a very common drill we ran at UNC to get all the first year fencers thinking more about distance and less about searching for the blade.

Once you control the distance, the parry is a formality. The trick is making the invitation (false counter-attack, false parry) that gets your opponent to commit.

Running that same "defender not allowed to parry" drill, we also demonstrated that if you're facing someone who will just push you off the strip before finishing their attack, then you better take a more active defense and try an early parry, as EDEW suggests. Both are great tactics at the correct time.

Originally Posted by grotto

Being able to parry later in the attack is connected to how well you can control the distance. Here is a drill I learned from a much better coach than I. one fencer has a weapon and tries to hit their partner. the other fencer has no weapon and must maintain distance so the attack does not arrive. the goal is to have your opponent miss, but just miss with the point being 1-2 inches from target. if the attacker hits they win, if you are "out of distance (say 4 or more inches) they win. you win by being as close to your opponents blade without being hit. This progresses to where you have a blade as well and get to parry repost but only parry repost. you will find you can parry much later into the attack and even choose the timing of the parry to change the tempo as you get better with the drill. As alway start this drill slowly and work on good form and legwork, speeding up as you get better. Speed is secondary in drills, being able to see and learn the distance is the important part.

[Pesto]

Originally Posted by grotto

Here is a drill I learned from a much better coach than I ... Speed is secondary in drills, being able to see and learn the distance is the important part.

This is a very nice drill, and it works for all weapons. Being able to evade someone's offensive action without giving away too much distance is one of the key things to master in Fencing.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

You didn't get it.

You're right, I apologize. For a second I thought you had grown up.

[drippingwet]

Some people might say that at higher level you can make a disengage on demand, even if your original intention was for a direct attack. I'm not qualified to question that possibility, but it would be interesting to learn how to do if it is possible!!!

[Epee_Pox]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

Spoken like a true epeeist. I want my opponent to think he is going to get a point, just before I hit him.

Why on earth do you care whether he thinks he's about to touch or not? Does that change the legitimacy of your point, or improve the likelihood of your getting the point? Of course not.

[Grasshopper]

All good ideas. Thanks. However, after trying this in practice several times I realized that parrying at the last second does not work for me. I am quite tall compared to most of my opponents and I find that even though I get the parry, the opponent is forced to come very close to me on the attack (to reach me) with their body, making them difficult to riposte against. This, compounded with the new box times, makes their remises very dangerous. Also, since a flicking riposte is out, my riposte has to be straight and not flicked. Trying to make a straight riposte when your opponent's body is 30cm away from you is not impossible, but not easy.

This led me to re-appreciate Walter's comment about the future of foil: The game will be about keeping the opponent in more front of you and at distance to deliver your hits. Especially for a tall foilist like myself, I should not let my opponent into close quarters.

[drippingwet]

Grasshopper, aren't you taking the retreat when you parry? This gets you into riposting distance. In fact, if you are tall, you may be able to use one of the things that you may worry about from your opponents - remise.

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by drippingwet

Grasshopper, aren't you taking the retreat when you parry? This gets you into riposting distance. In fact, if you are tall, you may be able to use one of the things that you may worry about from your opponents - remise.

Yeah, but imagine it: You are a short guy going to attack a tall guy. You are going have to really explode on your attack and get "inside" his distance to make the hit. So logically, if you get parried at the last second (your tip one cm from the lame) you are going to be physically very close to your taller opponent (this is a reality). At that distance, the taller fencer will have difficulty riposting against you because his tip will ALREADY be even with or even past his shorter opponent's body. This means the taller fencer MUST pull back his arm a bit to make the riposte. With "new foil", pulling back your arm to make a riposte is very very dangerous. (no flicks, box timing).

[drippingwet]

Well, if you're that tall, fencing on your knees might help. Alternatively, use your height to try counter-attacking as major part of defense. I know you might want to be able to parry riposte as well, as perhaps any fencer would, even if they don't use it very often, but although I'm not sure, I don't think being tall has prevented any high level fencer at least, from making many successful parry ripostes. Although, yes, I'm not sure that I've seen any high level fencing with new timings. If you're tall, that may cancel out the timings problem in close quarters fencing at least, especially if you've got flexible blade (referring to flicks).

Try watching tall Cevchenko in Golubitsky's Once Upon a Time. Might just get some ideas.

P.S. If you retreat with parry, parry isn't totally necessary anyway. They will be short, you can parry riposte/parry riposte off the redouble.

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by drippingwet

Try watching tall Cevchenko in Golubitsky's Once Upon a Time. Might just get some ideas.

.

Chevchenko gets trashed by Sergei in that bout, if I recall...

I'm not saying a nice riposte is not possible for a tall person, just that there are inherent difficulties for a tall person waiting till the last second to make a straight parry riposte without flick.

[drippingwet]

Trashed maybe, but still might get some ideas about defence, because I'm not sure any parry riposte that he did perform would have been done if it wasn't good technique - whether it failed or not.

Opponent attacks.
Grasshopper takes step back, parrying as front foot lands.
Opponents attack falls one tall person's retreat-worth of distance away from target.
Grasshopper ripostes direct.

Don't worry Grasshopper me old chum, I'm not trying to say that you're not getting what I'm saying, but are you getting what I'm saying?

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by drippingwet

Trashed maybe, but still might get some ideas about defence, because I'm not sure any parry riposte that he did perform would have been done if it wasn't good technique - whether it failed it or not.

Opponent attacks.
Grasshopper takes step back, parrying as front foot lands.
Opponents attack falls one tall person's retreat-worth of distance away from target.
Grasshopper ripostes direct.

Don't worry Grasshopper me old chum, I'm not trying to say that you're not getting what I'm saying, but are you getting what I'm saying?

Yeah, I get the logic in what you're saying, but the problem is in being able to move "one tall person's retreat-worth of distance" away at a faster speed that my opponent is flying into me at, AND, be able to then put on the brakes and stop the retreat to make the riposte. Again...not impossible, but very difficult.

I don't think Chefchenko was able to get any ripostes on Sergei in that bout. In fact, in Chefchenko's bout against Ferrari in Sydney Olympics, he could not get any points by riposte either, if I recall correctly. (Granted I'm sure he realized this difficulty before both matches and did not attempt so many).

Bissdorf is one tall guy who sometimes does the "parry riposte at the last second" move, but often ends up making his riposte with a 90deg angles with his shorter opponent's body 10cm away. It does not look "clean" and with the new box timings, will be harder to get away with.

[drippingwet]

Hmm, taking retreat with parry is one of the fundamental principles of fencing. But maybe there is an inherent difficulty in parry riposte for tall people. If you've had good coaching in this area and it's still not working, then maybe that's the time to consider it a weakness and concentrate on more active forms of defence like counter-attacks. If you haven't had that coaching, then perhaps you should seek it out.

Have you seen Cassara? Tall chap. Possibly very flicky.

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by drippingwet

Hmm, taking retreat with parry is one of the fundamental principles of fencing. But maybe there is an inherent difficulty in parry riposte for tall people. If you've had good coaching in this area and it's still not working, then maybe that's the time to consider it a weakness and concentrate on more active forms of defence like counter-attacks. If you haven't had that coaching, then perhaps you should seek it out.

Have you seen Cassara? Tall chap. Possibly very flicky.

Exactly, and I'm going to make some changes to my defensive game because of it.

Yes, Cassara is very tall and very flicky - will be interesting to see if (how) his game changes with the new score box...

[Craig]

Originally Posted by drippingwet

Well, if you're that tall, fencing on your knees might help.

But only if you're fencing SCA in the round and you've been previously hit in the leg.

[drippingwet]

Originally Posted by drippingwet

taking retreat with parry is one of the fundamental principles of fencing.

Actually, I should just say for anyone who doesn't realise, and therefore might try to do this in every situation, that taking a retreat with parry doesn't always apply. Perhaps saying it is one of the fundamental principles isn't quite accurate.

[oldguy31]

With the new timings, seen that effective move for tall people like Grasshopper is counter-attack with opposition, as opposed to late parry. I have a very late and strong quarte, but find I'm losing a lot of points now because i hit too hard with the riposte!

[drippingwet]

Why would hitting too hard lose points? Too much blade bend?