Infighting is a nice way to say "bad distance"- agree or disagree?

[Welted 24/7]

I can't remember where I've heard that before, but for some reason it just came to mind. I suppose this one is mostly for foilists and epeeists, since I haven't seen any DECENT sabre fencers ever infight.

I'm sort of half and half on this topic. I realize full well that there are some situations where you just don't have a choice, but I've also seen people who can't do jack from a normal distance, but once you get within a certain reach, they'll run at you, stop, and try to do that irritating over/behind the head thrust/flick. Sometimes you get stuck and you CAN'T get out of it without sacrificing the touch, but the people like the ones I described makes me want to say it's true.

What about you? Legit techniques, or people not wanting to admit that their distance is bad?

[raymac]

i wouldn't say it's bad distance. alot of people are naturally good infighters, or they practice it often, and employ it against opponents who may have difficulties fencing at such a restricted range.

[Epee_Pox]

In epee, at least, you're going to wind up in an infighting situation often enough. Lots of reasons for it. It's not always because of a mistake or bad distance control. Often as not, it's just the result of the way your strategy and the other guy's strategy combined. And it is sometimes done on purpose, especially when one fencer realizes the other's not so good at infighting.

It's not pretty. It usually looks awkward or sloppy. But an epee fencer who lacks infighting skills is an incomplete fencer.

[drippingwet]

Some people might think it's a nice way to say "brawl" though, but I'm not sure. There seems to be a specific technique to infighting, at least in modern fencing. Another tactical option perhaps.

[mrbiggs]

It's not always bad distance. I have purposely forced infighting positions before in bouts, and not because I have bad distance. If someone is much taller than you, for example, infighting is not a bad idea.

But how exactly do you define "infighting"? Is it the distance where you're basically touching your opponent, and you can only hit with a prime (or, now, turned shoulders)? Or is it the distance where you both SHOULD have hit at some point, and are now within extension range?

[bjacobs]

Welted, if someone can score enough touches on you by closing distance and then infighting that you see it as worth complaining about, then that person is showing a certain degree of control of distance.

[Welted 24/7]

Actually, what I meant was that they just can't do anything other than that. I haven't actually fenced them since I ditched foil, but I've seen people who do that and their technique sucks other than that. It's like all they ever do is practice that and nothing else.

[O_O #2]

if a guy is signifigantly taller than you, infighting is the best way to get them. If you can initiate an infighting situation on demand, you have GREAT distance. if you do it by accident, you have crappy distance.

[Alain]

Originally Posted by Welted 24/7

What about you? Legit techniques, or people not wanting to admit that their distance is bad?

I love fencing in close-quarters, because invariably I tend to get the hit. You're right in that it concerns distance, but it does not necessarily mean bad distance from either fencer. A lot of my hits tend to be in close as a result of hitting with second intention, mostily with remise and redouble (after a flêche, for example).

If you're not so comfortable with infighting, then you really need to be... but until then, if you're fencing somebody that is comfortable with it, my advice would be to keep your distance as best you can and stay sharp. Distance is the best defense!

Good luck!

[VELISARIOS]

Look. At the start I have had the same promblem with you. When you come in this situation the best that you can do is to RUN forward left (if you are right hand) and pass off your oponent. You cannot touch you if you run fast, dont worry about that. Now the other that I can say is the following. Try to not come in this situation. When your oponent press you with a lung, you must fall back and parry then ripost him quickly, now if you can break his tempo that will be nice (if you are an epee player try a quick contra attack without ofcourse fall back and the touch is yours.)

[HillBilly]

bad distance?!?! methinks not!

Infighting for me is extremely useful for when I KNOW the other guy sucks at it. I have a mean flechime (fleche and prime rolled into one crunchy ball of goodness).

[germanguy]

.....

[Pancakes]

I think it's fun

But there's only one person I ever really wind up infighting with at my club, and generally only on the new timing I don't know.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by HillBilly

bad distance?!?! methinks not!

Infighting for me is extremely useful for when I KNOW the other guy sucks at it. I have a mean flechime (fleche and prime rolled into one crunchy ball of goodness).

Wow, I didn't know anyone else did that. I find it to be very effective against lefties who keep their bellguard against their chest.

VELISARIOS, if they are an experienced fencer, they will hit you when you run past.

[davtsung]

Foil infighting offers some remarkable demonstrations of human athleticism and elasticity... especially if you're tall.

[ThatReallyHurt]

I find that if I've ever closed to infighting, I usually get the hit. I don't particularly try to close distance, but it does seem to work against tall skinny people with long limbs.

[acaba]

<Donning flame retardant suit>
I had an old school Russian coach one time (old as in the bad old days) giving an epee infighting lesson to one of my friends. The coach stood chest to chest with my friend and said "When stand here, where you touch?" After about 15 seconds of my friend trying various contortions with his arm, trying to get his point on the coach, the coach says "NO! Hit here!" and jabs his own toe, saying "Always know where own foot is!" Kind of an entertaining lesson!
<Doffing flame retardant suit>

I've always acknowledged when I hit myself in competition bouts, and the ref has always properly discounted my touches.

Interesting side note: George K was giving a reffing clinic and mentioned that the real reason for disallowing turning of the back is not for safety. Safety would prevent turning of the HEAD which is still perfectly legal under the rules. The reason is because epee fencers would take prime and close distance, and clip their own thigh on the riposte. Heck, when the fencers are that bound up it gets difficult for the ref to see exactly where the hit occurs. Infighting can get really messy, especially in epee.

Aaron

[acaba]

I love to have a good infight. (is that proper english?!?) My favorite action is probably a big sweep 2, then step forward with the back foot, reverse the shoulders, and jab for the gut. My (other) Russian coach would describe the hit with: "Is like knife, like knife!" for the short thrust at the end. Lots of fun to hit with this one.

Infighting for me is just another aspect of fencing. If I can get away with simple actions at long distance, I prefer that. Sometimes you have to crunch the distance to get the touch. If I'm better at infighting, I will. Sometimes the other fencer reacts unexpectadely and the distance gets crunched. If you know how to shorten that 35" of epee or foil down to something manageable, it increases your chances of getting a touch at very close distance.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Welted 24/7

Actually, what I meant was that they just can't do anything other than that. I haven't actually fenced them since I ditched foil, but I've seen people who do that and their technique sucks other than that. It's like all they ever do is practice that and nothing else.

But isn't that true with every technique? We've all seen fencers who can only flick, and only practices to flick. That's just one example. In epee, you see the guys who practice only foot touches, or who only rely on counters...

It doesn't mean the technique itself is bad, just that the fencer is limited.

Infighting is a very important technique that every foil and epee fencer needs to practice.

[LordTofuDog-jnr]

What Ach said, infighting is a part of fencing for both foil and epee, that means if you're good at it then it's an advantage over people who aren't good at it. The question of "is it good technique?" is like asking "is the lunge good technique?"