Pronounciation Guide?

[Pancakes]

I have a far harder time with some of the weird *** foreign names of some of the coaches...

[Alain]

Originally Posted by Pancakes

I have a far harder time with some of the weird *** foreign names of some of the coaches...

Ah, now that's a lot more confusing! As long as you give it a go, most people will know who you're talking about...

My surname is from Poland: Barbasiewicz. Oh, and my coach's name is from Wales: Llewellyn...

[skermulo]

la·mé (lă mā')

n. A brocaded fabric woven with metallic threads, often of gold or silver.

[French, spangled, laminated, lamé, from Old French lame, thin metal plate.]

[Epee_Pox]

Originally Posted by Alain

Ah, now that's a lot more confusing! As long as you give it a go, most people will know who you're talking about...

My surname is from Poland: Barbasiewicz. Oh, and my coach's name is from Wales: Llewellyn...

What's hard about llewellyn? "Lou Ellen." Easy.

Barbasiewicz, though, that one can't possibly be spelled the way it's pronounced. I'm guessing "Barb, A Sea Witch."

Which raises a possibly interesting threadjack: Why are foreign words transliterated into English in such a way as to guarantee mispronunciation? It makes no sense -- you're translating into a different alphabet, so you're free to spell it however you like, and yet words never get spelled phonetically.

Polish is a good example. Russian is a great example. Chinese is the best. A "t" doesn't sound like a "t," it sounds more like a "d" -- unless there's an apostrophe after it, in which case you should pronounce it like a "t." An "e" sounds like a "u." A "u" sounds like an "o." A "ts" sounds like a "z." Etc. etc. WHY?! How hard is it to spell something the way it sounds?

And on top of all that, what letters get used for a given sound differ depending on which language is being transliterated. You don't get this problem in other languages -- they spell things according to the pronunciation rules of their own language -- just in English. WHY?!

[mrbiggs]

Chinese is hard not necessarily because of the pronunciation, but because a given name can be spelled many, many different ways depending on when an immigrant came here. In the official lettered version of Chinese (pinyin), a "q" is a hard ch. But an immigrant before pinyin was standard might have had a name such as "Qu" (hard to pronounce in itself) spelled as "Chu" "Tchu", etc.

Polish is hard because it looks phonetic, but there's alot of differences from English. (Like w's pronounced as v's. Unless, of course, it was an l with an accent, pronounced like w, Anglicized...)

I'd say the hardest are the names that don't seem to be from any specific country, but they're definately not English. So you can't even get a general idea of pronunciation from their nationality, and you kinda have to do a conglomerate of a few different languages at different parts.

[Epee_Pox]

But the question remains: Why spell it Qu (which would be pronounced "kw") when you ought to have spelt it Choo or Chu? Or Moscow when you could have spelt it Moskva. Or Sylwia when you could have spelt it Sylvia. Or Bangladesh when you could have spelt it Bong LaDesh. Or Hue when you could have spelt it Hway. Or Qatar instead of Gutter. Or Japan instead of Nippone. Et nauseating cetera.

I secretly think that, in the case of Chinese transliteration (and there are at least two competing methods) it's something academics did just to be different. Unhelpful lot.

[Inquartata]

Or Germany..or is it Allemagne? Or Deutschland? Or...?

[Gav]

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

What's hard about llewellyn? "Lou Ellen." Easy.

Ummm.... You got that wrong.

Llewellyn is NOT pronounced Lou Ellen.

LL is a gutteral sound which sounds like CH (as in Loch) with an L on the end. Try placing your tongue on the back of the top teeth and forcing air round the sides

so it is actually pronounced 'chl'-oo-eh-'chl'-in

Note: that is not the number of syllables, I'm trying to illustrate how you should pronounce it.

I have Welsh friends what can I say?

[Epee_Pox]

Yeah, I was being cheeky. HH(l)ou eHH(l)en is how I would have transliterated it.

[Gav]

Here's some good Scottish and English towns. Brownie points to foregners who get them right!

Milngavie
Berwick
Bicester
Cirencester
Lerwick
Kirkcaldy
Alnwick

And incidentally, it annoys people in Scotland to hear people not even try and pronounce Loch properly.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Gav

I have Welsh friends what can I say?

"Hence! I am qualmish at the smell of leek."

[Zilverzmurfen]

Originally Posted by Alain

My surname is from Poland: Barbasiewicz. Oh, and my coach's name is from Wales: Llewellyn...

Barbasiewicz: Easy!
Llewellyn: Tricky.

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

Or Sylwia when you could have spelt it Sylvia.

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

You don't get this problem in other languages -- they spell things according to the pronunciation rules of their own language -- just in English. WHY?!

Well, you said it yourself!
Because W is pronounced V in polish. It's mostly in english that W is pronounced "soft" (eg. willow).

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

How hard is it to spell something the way it sounds?

That's a very interesting question! I think most foreigners would be quite confused if they were to learn swedish.

Words aren't necessarily spelled the way they're pronounced.
For example the words Kall (Cold) and Källare (Basement) are completely different. Kall is a 'hard' k-sound and Källare is a 'soft' k, vaguely similar to the ch-sound in cheese.

Additionally there a re a lot of different ch, tj, sk and sj sounds. It is said that the most difficult word in swedish for a foreigner is "Sjuksköterska" (Nurse)!

A couple of months ago I taught a (foreign) friend to say the ultimate chtjsksj-rhyme in swedish:

"Sju sjösjuka sjömän från det skeppsbrutna skeppet Shanghai."

("Seven seasick sailors from the shipwrecked ship Shangahai." It's even tricky in english!)

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Or Germany..or is it Allemagne? Or Deutschland? Or...?

Surely that depends on what language you speak!
Germany is called Germany in english, Allemagne in french, Deutschland in german...and Tyskland in swedish.

Additionally, Sweden is not called Sweden in Swedish - it's Sverige.

Sverige is an abbreviation of "Svea Rike" (meaning Kingdom of the (clan) Svea). This goes back in history to when before Sweden was
united and consisted of different kingdoms. The largest 'clans' were the Svea and Göta.

Originally Posted by Gav

Berwick
Lerwick

I'm probably wrong, but I've been taught that the letter E in Berwick and Lerwick is supposed to be pronounced as an A...

And you could have added Edinburgh to that list!

[scrapinpeg]

Originally Posted by Gav

And incidentally, it annoys people in Scotland to hear people not even try and pronounce Loch properly.

Hey, if you're going to spell it so it rhymes with "Watch," you should be grateful that people go to the effort to make it rhyme with "Lock." Which is close enough, especially when one's native language does not include sounds of expectoration.

(grinning, ducking & running)

[scrapinpeg]

Originally Posted by Zilverzmurfen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epee_Pox
You don't get this problem in other languages -- they spell things according to the pronunciation rules of their own language -- just in English. WHY?!


Well, you said it yourself!
Because W is pronounced V in polish. It's mostly in english that W is pronounced "soft" (eg. willow).

I think what was meant was, when something from Arabic is transliterated into, say, French, the French spelling approximates the Arabic pronunciation. But if something from Polish is transliterated into English, they keep the Polish letters even though they're pronounced differently in English.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

I secretly think that, in the case of Chinese transliteration (and there are at least two competing methods) it's something academics did just to be different. Unhelpful lot.

It's because the Russians were the ones who developed pinyin, because China is communist and, during the fifties, wasn't really interested in Americans improving their language. Russians, meanwhile.... (Another hard one is that "c" is pronounced "ts" in Chinese)

I think that transliteration really sucks sometimes. For example, when I went to Poland, I found out that Warsaw is nor pronouned "WAR SAW" in Polish. It's more like "Varshava". Which both sounds completely different, and is a lot prettier.

[tchwojko]

People always ask me how to prounce my name, and I'm always confused as to why they ask. It's rather simple.

It's 'Tom'.

[sreckiki]

During the competitions in my area, they stopped trying to say my name... Sounds too French for everybody...

So now, they just call me: "Ludovic... (a couple of secondes)... you know, the French guy"

That makes me laugh each time.

[scrapinpeg]

Originally Posted by sreckiki

"Ludovic... (a couple of secondes)... you know, the French guy"

I thought the French version of that name is Louis?

Clovis, Chlodwig, Chlodowic, Chlodowech, Hludowic, Louis, Ludwig, Ludovico, Lodewijk... all the same name. That Frankish king back in the 400s, right?

[sreckiki]

Originally Posted by scrapinpeg

I thought the French version of that name is Louis?

Actually, you're right. Ludovic is just the latin version of Louis and it's pretty common in France.

Originally Posted by scrapinpeg

Clovis, Chlodwig, Chlodowic, Chlodowech, Hludowic, Louis, Ludwig, Ludovico, Lodewijk... all the same name. That Frankish king back in the 400s, right?

You're right, again. I'm a bit surprise you know that!

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by Gav

And incidentally, it annoys people in Scotland to hear people not even try and pronounce Loch properly.

The pronunciation of Loch as "lock" is a compromise between loch and the proper English term, lake.