Why so easily impressed?

[guy_smiley]

Here is a question I'd like to pose to the younger (Not necessarily in age but in experience.) fencers on the board:

Why are you so impressed with people who can flick? Or impressed with flicking even if you're not impressed with the people that can do it.

Now, don't misunderstand. I'm not bagging on anyone who flicks, or those who choose not to. As someone who at this point is nothing but a recreational fencer, I don't give a damn if someone uses flick or doesn't.

C'mon. Getting hit or hitting with a flick isn't worth anymore points than a sleazy, off balance remise. What's with the obsessiveness?

Is this similar to the obsession with the slam-dunk in basketball?

[glowstix]

i'm not that young but i'm impressed by flicking for a number of reasons:

1. it takes practice to master. anyone you take off the street can execute a straight thrust in a matter of minutes but will take sssoooooo much longer to learn how to flick. the technique has to be good or you will hurt your opponent. timing has to be good or you will miss. distance judgement has to be good too. all these factors make flicks very fascinating. for me, personally, any action that requires hard work and practice to master has value.

2. it adds another dimension to fencing: to be able to hit target area you can't even see; i.e. middle of you opponents back!?!?? come on. thats impressive!! i can't do it but when its done to me i really admire the move and the opponent.

3. they flat out look COOL!!!!!!!!!

unfortunately, the new rules will significantly reduce this art...all this coming from a person who can't flick to save his life.

[Svidrigailov]

It may be a myth, but I heard of a cuban foilist who learned to flick AFTER he became pan-american champion.

[mrbiggs]

It is identical to the slam-dunk in basketball. People like it because it looks cool. Off-balance remises don't look cool.

[Alain]

Humph, good question!

For foil, to be honest, I don't care. On the one hand, I think that the flick has become so integrated into the game that, as you say, fencers almost feel a duty to hit someone on the back even when presented with a more obvious target. To this extent, I can see why the new timings were brought in to traditionalise (if that's a word?!) the sport. Then again, it can also be viewed as an evolution of the modern sport, where the flick is a necessary tool used against increasingly comprehensive defenses.

As an épéeist, though, I must admit that I do in fact use flicks. Shocking, I know. I don't use them often, and it's not by any stretch of the imagination my preferred way of hitting... but around the hand/wrist area, it can prove to be an extremely efficient and effective way of scoring a point.

That's all it comes down to: scoring hits. It's the means to an end.

What do you guys think?!

[guy_smiley]

You're #3 pretty much answers my question (in terms of the basketball analogy), even though I'm thinking more of epee than I am of foil. I suppose it applies to both, except for the new timing thing.

Personally, I don't really think of it as a new dimension but just one, out of many, actions that can be used in a given situation.

The reason that I mention it is that I've noticed while I'm bouting with someone, they seem confident and they do well, up until the moment they get hit with a flick. Once that connects and especially if I can demonstrate that I can do it reliably, a less experienced fencer will basically mentally fold, convinced that they are outclassed, which is, of course, rediculous.

Originally Posted by glowstix

i'm not that young but i'm impressed by flicking for a number of reasons:

1. it takes practice to master. anyone you take off the street can execute a straight thrust in a matter of minutes but will take sssoooooo much longer to learn how to flick. the technique has to be good or you will hurt your opponent. timing has to be good or you will miss. distance judgement has to be good too. all these factors make flicks very fascinating. for me, personally, any action that requires hard work and practice to master has value.

2. it adds another dimension to fencing: to be able to hit target area you can't even see; i.e. middle of you opponents back!?!?? come on. thats impressive!! i can't do it but when its done to me i really admire the move and the opponent.

3. they flat out look COOL!!!!!!!!!

unfortunately, the new rules will significantly reduce this art...all this coming from a person who can't flick to save his life.

[ThatReallyHurt]

I'm not impressed with the flicking itself; it's more the amount of control someone needs to precisely bend a piece of steel to hit a moving target.

That is, if it's done correctly. Otherwise, It's not impressive at all - it's irritating.

[Welted 24/7]

Originally Posted by guy_smiley

The reason that I mention it is that I've noticed while I'm bouting with someone, they seem confident and they do well, up until the moment they get hit with a flick. Once that connects and especially if I can demonstrate that I can do it reliably, a less experienced fencer will basically mentally fold, convinced that they are outclassed, which is, of course, rediculous.

Well, there might be a few reasons for that. When I first started and I got flicked, my reaction was "AGH WHAT THE HELL THAT'S MY BACK YOU CAN'T HIT ME THERE". With somewhat inexperienced fencers, it's a matter of getting hit in a target area they aren't even thinking of. It might make them feel stupid for not thinking to consider such a huge area(your back) as a target. They might think that it's not fair that you can hit them in the back and they can't do it to you. It kinda ties in with the surprise factor. When you hit somebody with something they aren't expecting(on any level of fencing, really), they're bound to get a little discouraged. On a beginning level, "a little discouraged" usually ends up as "damn it, I can't win now if he can do that". Not to mention the pain issue...a lot of people just learning how to flick think that the blade won't bend and the tip won't go off unless they slash their weapon like a movie swashbuckler. I can tell you I've received a few sabre-esque welts from people who thought they knew how to flick after seeing somebody else do it. That can be the most discouraging thing of all.

As for myself, when I still fenced foil, I didn't really flick all that much, except for a few situations. If I had the right distance on a counter parry six, it just felt natural to flick from there, and it almost always worked. Also, I used to fence people who thought ducking and leaning over were smart tactical choices. If they want to give me their entire back as a target, am I not supposed to take advantage of it? When I can see the letters on the back of a lame, you can bet that they'll be getting a stinger in the middle of the shoulderblades.

[Alain]

Originally Posted by Welted 24/7

Well, there might be a few reasons for that. When I first started and I got flicked, my reaction was "AGH WHAT THE HELL THAT'S MY BACK YOU CAN'T HIT ME THERE". With somewhat inexperienced fencers, it's a matter of getting hit in a target area they aren't even thinking of. It might make them feel stupid for not thinking to consider such a huge area(your back) as a target. They might think that it's not fair that you can hit them in the back and they can't do it to you. It kinda ties in with the surprise factor. When you hit somebody with something they aren't expecting(on any level of fencing, really), they're bound to get a little discouraged. On a beginning level, "a little discouraged" usually ends up as "damn it, I can't win now if he can do that".

Yeah, spot on. I've noticed this. I've been back at my club for a while now, and have sinced coached through a complete class of beginners to the point where they now have their own personal kit and are fencing with other experienced members. From being completely new to the sport, these people have had 10 weeks of foil followed by 5 weeks of épée. Just the other day, I fenced one of these guys (who's like double my height), and when he attacked me I instinctively did a flick to his wrist. No matter how apprehensive he was before that hit; afterwards, he didn't have a clue...

This is a bit of a new experience for me, in that I've never really had my own 'students' before. How do you lessen the blow as it were? What kind of advice do you give to someone who's just been let loose from the pond into the ocean? Any ideas..?

Thanks for your help

[guy_smiley]

Originally Posted by Welted 24/7

When you hit somebody with something they aren't expecting(on any level of fencing, really), they're bound to get a little discouraged.

Not to be contentious, but I don't agree. I've seen (As I'm sure many who post here have.) some of the best fencers in the world compete. They don't get discouraged. They know that anytime someone hits you with something, there is a good chance that they will try it again at some point in the bout, so they will try to present the same or a similar situation to their opponent, but this time at the time of their choosing so they will control the action and get touch.

In other words, they'll use it.

It seems to me that anyone that's been doing this for a while understands that getting hit is part of the game, whether it's a beautiful touch or a ugly one, and letting it get you down just hands an advantage to your opponent, in most cases.

[Welted 24/7]

Well yeah, I'm not saying somebody like Golubitsky or Podz is going to go "Oh no, that sucked, I'd better not get caught by that again." There are varying levels of "discouraged", but in retrospect that probably wasn't the best word to use. In their case, they probably just note that they shouldn't have gotten hit with it, and file it away for future reference if they see it coming again. As you go down the ability levels, it probably increases until it gets to the point you were talking about at the start of the topic.

Alain- you've just gotta drill it into them that the flick isn't some secret weapon that automatically means you're a fencing god(even if you are), and it isn't something to be confused about. It's a legitimate tactic like anything else, and it can be defended against just like a regular attack- with proper distance and a good parry. I think the main issue that people have when parrying flicks is that they're always taught to make parries as small and efficient as possible. Parrying a flick is more akin to a sabre parry, which is kinda contrary to how you learn to parry in foil(I dunno about epee parries, I try not to pay attention). Beginners will probably think "Agh, I can't parry that like they taught me to".

[guy_smiley]

Originally Posted by Alain

This is a bit of a new experience for me, in that I've never really had my own 'students' before. How do you lessen the blow as it were? What kind of advice do you give to someone who's just been let loose from the pond into the ocean? Any ideas..?

Thanks for your help

You demystify it for them. You explain and demonstrate the technique. You show them multiple ways to defend themselves from it, and even better, you show the disadvantages of it. There isn't a fencing move created that there isn't a way to defend/take advantage of it.

Then you tell them not to do it until you think they're ready to apply it properly, unless of course you think they're ready, in which case tell them to have at it.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by guy_smiley

You're #3 pretty much answers my question (in terms of the basketball analogy), even though I'm thinking more of epee than I am of foil. I suppose it applies to both, except for the new timing thing.

Personally, I don't really think of it as a new dimension but just one, out of many, actions that can be used in a given situation.

The reason that I mention it is that I've noticed while I'm bouting with someone, they seem confident and they do well, up until the moment they get hit with a flick. Once that connects and especially if I can demonstrate that I can do it reliably, a less experienced fencer will basically mentally fold, convinced that they are outclassed, which is, of course, rediculous.

Couple of things here, it's not just that it looks cool. It's the whole package. A dunk in basketball looks cool because it's difficult. It's difficult to get past the defense, elevate, and dunk. That's why dunks over people are so demoralizing. It shows total ownership of the defense. It shows how much better you are. In bball, 3 point shots can be just as demoralizing.

In fencing, a wide variety of actions can be demoralizing. The really difficult ones usually are. Line, the back flick, the straight lunge, the unnoticed hand touch are all capable of demoralizing you opponent but not all attract the attention of spectators. The flick is the most attention getting since it is usually the largest and most noticeable of the above actions.


And lastly, if you're fencing an inexperienced fencer, and can hit them reliable on the wrist with a flick, aren't they outclassed? I mean, you can demonstrate that you can hit them reliably with an action they can't yet even do. That doesn't mean that it's impossible to win, but it certainly does tell them that you're better than them. And being inexperienced, they have to learn that just because you're better, doesn't mean you'll win every time.

[Aerevon]

ok, I'm sure this makes me sound really inexperienced, but how exactly do you flick? no one's ever taught me, and I've never even had anyone do it to me, I've just heard people talk about it...

[telkanuru]

If you haven't learned, wait for your coach to teach you. Otherwise, you will most likely fail and your fencing will suffer.

[Welted 24/7]

Originally Posted by Aerevon

ok, I'm sure this makes me sound really inexperienced, but how exactly do you flick? no one's ever taught me, and I've never even had anyone do it to me, I've just heard people talk about it...

It's difficult to explain properly without a visual aid. Ask your coach the next time you see them. Contrary to popular beginner belief, you don't use your arm much at all...it really is just a finger action. Your arm gets the weapon where it needs to be for the flick, nothing more. Your hand does the REAL work. You CAN use your arm and wrist, and it might land, but this is an unreliable way to do it, not to mention sloppy and painful for your opponent. Until you know you can do it reliably and cleanly, I wouldn't do it in a tournament.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by Aerevon

ok, I'm sure this makes me sound really inexperienced, but how exactly do you flick? no one's ever taught me, and I've never even had anyone do it to me, I've just heard people talk about it...

you essentially move the blade forward very fast, and then suddenely stop moving forward so that the tip of the blade moves forward past the rest of the blade and hits the target. Takes a good bit of arm strength to pull it off successfully and reliably. Give me rep points.

[O_O]

it takes a lot of work to perfect a nice flick (especially with the new timings). It is human nature for one to be impressed by an ability he/she does not have.

[Kat]

It's harder to do.

[ThatReallyHurt]

Originally Posted by guy_smiley

C'mon. Getting hit or hitting with a flick isn't worth anymore points than a sleazy, off balance remise. What's with the obsessiveness?

One could ask a question from the other side - what's the big deal about hitting with a flick? Some people talk about flicking (especially with the new timings) like that's the only way they're comfortable making a touch...