Fixing Reels

[Achilles]

I have an allstar fencing reel, and i have 2 questions. Can you get diagrams for it and for the electrial boxes?

When you open up the allstar reel, you have the reel that the floor cable winds around, when you take that off, you have that rotating piece (male end) that fits down into the spring. The reel has not been cleaned before and so it has a large dust collection. The dust has gotten down into the place that holds the rotating piece (female end). Can you replace that piece (female rotating piece)?

Does this make sense?

[Mergs]

Although I haven't worked on an Allstar reel, I would first ask the question, why would you want to replace the female rotating part? Is it broken or just dirty? If the later, then either blow it out with compressed air or clean it with a rag if you can be reasonably assured of getting it back together.

[Achilles]

the piece is damaged and it needs to be replaced. i just don't know how to get it out so that i can replace it.

[DHCJr]

The Allstar reel is rare, so I only worked a few times. From what you have said this is an old reel from the 90's or earlier. The newer reels are repaired very similar to the Uhlmann reels.

I could type a lot, but I will give you a better source with diagrams. Check out our friends to the north, Canada. www.fencing.ca and look for Coaching manuals. In there you will find an Armorer and Competition guide, check page 51 for Vertical reels. It has a very good blow-up drawing.

Here is the direct address which I hope will work.

http://www.fencing.ca/coaching_manua...r_comp_eng.pdf

[Achilles]

yeah thanks for the link. I'm a Canadian and it is required for us to carry the books. I just have never heard of this problem before. I'm surprised that you guys hardly ever work on the allstar reels. They are the most common type of reel up here. I personally don't like them because they are so difficult to fix. I'm a Leon Paul reel fan. All of the ulhmans that we have are way to old to be fixed. The new Italian reel that has just come out is becoming very popular. What do you guys think about it?

[DHCJr]

The Leon Paul reels in the past have been the majority because of cost. That seems to be the most important factor in the states to the Armorers chagrine. Picture how many use Chinese copies of body cord and connectors, especially copies of Leon Paul. Uhlmanns of both the upright and the turtles are the next type. Whenever there is an international tournament, for the most part Uhlmann has gotten the contract or used Uhlmann reels and after the tournament the reels get bought. The next biggest group is probably the Prieur or the Russian copies of the Prieur.

In answer to your second question, they are a sturdy reel, just feel their weight. They are not as easy to work with, nor as intuitive. For example, I had to take one apart down to disconnecting the wire from the springs. Like the Uhlmann ground line, the Italian runs their connection through a spring, but they do it to all lines. There is no marking which hole goes to which spring which goes to which line. I didn't mark when I took it apart, so it took more time to get it back together. A suggestion if you open up one, mark the connections, this was also a problem with the old Uhlmann upright, until someone, before me, came up with the idea of marking the connections on the inside of the case with a Red and Blue magic marker.

The two biggest problems I have encountered is being so flat, they invite people to stand on them and they can jump the spool, but that is common with most of the flat wide types.

I do like the speed break and the spring at the connector end. They are a nice feature.

[neevel]

Achillieus-

I've got a couple of the pre-mercotac Allstars, so I'm pretty familiar with them. They are a pain since they need to be cleaned even more often than upright reels, and dirt & oil collect at the bottom of the well for the contacts. First off, I assume you've cleaned both the contact post (what you call the "male" part) and the commutator ("female") with a contact cleaner. Also, you'll want to take a small screwdriver or razor knife and gently scrape the metal contacts on both parts, since you can get a layer of corrosion on them that is both resistant to contact cleaner and not visible to the eye. To get to the commutator, you'll want to unmount the cable spool from the reel. Detension the spring by lifting the metal grommet out of it's slot on the bottom portion of the reel and gently letting the spring unwind while holding on to the grommet and coupler. Remove the screw and spring for the contact post and then remove the two screws that hold the spool on to the bearing, and then lift the spool off. Once the spool is off, undo the screws that hold the spring pan onto the lower body of the reel to drop the spring pan. One nice thing about the Allstar reels is that the spring pan has it's own lid that will keep the spring in. The commutator is fixed to the top of the spring pan lid. Clean it carefully and check continuity from the floor cord plug to the commutator. I'm not certain if you can replace the commutator without replacing the whole spring-pan lid. If your Canadian Allstar distributor can't get the part, I'd imagine that Fechtsport-Langenkamp could.

As for the Favero reels, I've become a big fan of them. They've only been out a few years, but the materials and workmanship on them are first rate, and the approach of using the three springs to carry the current eliminates any contact cleaning issues. The internal acceleration brake and the use of a spring for the strain relief at the coupling is great for preventing damage when someone lets go of the cable mid-strip. They are heavy enough to not have to be taped down, and Favero is smart enough to include a repair manual and spare parts list with the reels. Combine that with the price advantage over Uhlmann, Allstar, and Leon Paul and I think it becomes an easy choice. The only downside is that, if and when one of the springs does break, you'll have to replace the whole spring assembly rather than just a single spring. Also, since they are flat you will need to be diligent and creative about punishing anybody who thinks they're a cool place to stand on (threatening to play Barry Manilow over the PA system might be called for).

-Dave

[Inquartata]

Hmm...my club has had two out of our six Faveros go south within 3 months of purchase. Did we get a bad lot, or are they less durable than other brands?

[neevel]

In what way did they fail? I've had two pairs of Faveros in continuous use at my club with no problems beyond a lost bail snap from one of the couplings. You are making a point of pummeling and publicly humiliating anybody who lets a cable go mid-strip or standing on one, aren't you? While the centrifugal brake greatly reduces the chance of damage from the cable hitting the case, it doesn't eliminate it, and they were never designed to be a stepping stool. Also, if you have people unhooking by pulling on the cable instead of the coupling, that will cause problems with any reel (again, pummeling and public humiliation of offenders).

[Achilles]

thanks, that helps.

[The Armourer]

Originally Posted by neevel

I've had two pairs of Faveros in continuous use at my club with no problems beyond a lost bail snap from one of the couplings. You are making a point of pummeling and publicly humiliating anybody who lets a cable go mid-strip or standing on one, aren't you? While the centrifugal brake greatly reduces the chance of damage from the cable hitting the case, it doesn't eliminate it, and they were never designed to be a stepping stool. .

Last year we replaced all our LP spools with Faveros and they work fine - we havent told our members about the centrifugal break (its on a need to know basis - they dont need to know) so everyone treats the new spools like the old LP ones. Any letting go of the cable still gets frowned upon as it always was!

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by neevel

In what way did they fail?

Just started acting wonky, lots of flickering dirty lights or hits not registered, etc. We used the usual ad hoc diagnostic process: fencers start getting wierd lights or no lights, so we change weapons, body cords, floor cables, still have problems, use another reel, problem goes away.

You are making a point of pummeling and publicly humiliating anybody who lets a cable go mid-strip or standing on one, aren't you?

Yep. We have pretty much trained people not to do those things. I don't think it's an abuse problem.

[neevel]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Just started acting wonky, lots of flickering dirty lights or hits not registered, etc. We used the usual ad hoc diagnostic process: fencers start getting wierd lights or no lights, so we change weapons, body cords, floor cables, still have problems, use another reel, problem goes away.

But nobody has actually tested the reel with an ohm-meter? You can often have issues due to the pins of the floor cord not fitting securely into the socket of the reel.

-Dave

[DJ Apostrophe]

Our answer to keeping people from stepping on the Favero reels (see attachment).

the reel stands are about seven feet off the ground. the last two feet of the reel cord is tied off with a small piece of garden hose to keep the line from retracting all the way, thus allowing them to be reached.

I will take a picture of this in action tonight when I am at club and will post it.

[oiuyt]

Or Tauber's solution (with Uhlmann reels naturally rather than the Faveros) to drop them all below floor level.

-B :)

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by neevel

But nobody has actually tested the reel with an ohm-meter? You can often have issues due to the pins of the floor cord not fitting securely into the socket of the reel.

-Dave

No. We have no armourer per se, and I'm not even sure any of us has an ohmmeter...

We have had the loose-fitting floor-cord problem---but it's mostly been with the connection to the Favero boxes. Some of them don't even want to stay plugged in and keep falling out under their own weight! But as I say we've switched out floor cords without changing the problems, so we're pretty sure it's the reels themselves.

[neevel]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

No. We have no armourer per se, and I'm not even sure any of us has an ohmmeter...

We have had the loose-fitting floor-cord problem---but it's mostly been with the connection to the Favero boxes. Some of them don't even want to stay plugged in and keep falling out under their own weight! But as I say we've switched out floor cords without changing the problems, so we're pretty sure it's the reels themselves.

Since Favero will be making their reel connectors to the same dimension as their machine connectors, if you're having issues with poor fit on the boxes it's likely you're also having poor fit with the reels. The cords won't fall out because the reels are horizontal, but you can still get an inadequate contact. By replacing a floor cord with one whose pins are just a little bigger, or simply wiggling one that's already there, you can get a good contact again, but the next time the cord or reel shifts a bit you can lose it.

What I'd do is:

1. Head over to Radio Shack and get an inexpensive ($20-25) ohmmeter. You want one that uses bannana-jack leads (which are the same size as the plugs in the reel). In that price range, analog meters will be better than digital ones (cheap digital meters without an auto-ranging feature can be slow to refresh the display and may miss transient breaks). Get stackable bananna jack leads, which will allow you to plug in the male pins of floor cords and body cords as well. This'll be a cheap but very useful investement for your club. PM me and I'll be glad to give instructions on how to test if you need them.

2. Use a small screwdriver to spread the pins of your floor cord plugs so they'll make a tighter fit-- if this is the problem then that should clear it up.

[Stylothek]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Or Tauber's solution (with Uhlmann reels naturally rather than the Faveros) to drop them all below floor level.

-B

Not only Taubers solution, Koblenz and Bonn have the same, most common way to protect the reels over here. Though I do like the idea with the hanging reels.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by neevel

Since Favero will be making their reel connectors to the same dimension as their machine connectors, if you're having issues with poor fit on the boxes it's likely you're also having poor fit with the reels.

It's strange, but it seems not to be thus. The floor cords which came with the boxes and reels fit snugly enough into the reels---the ones that didn't we made do so by spreading the slats of the plug pins, but they are still loose in the boxes, and we are reluctant to spread the slats any more lest we break them.

Usually when we have problems we switch the floor cords for one of the older ones we have ( Prieur, I think, orange three-cable things ) which fit much more tightly. For these two reels, that didn't help.

1. Head over to Radio Shack and get an inexpensive ($20-25) ohmmeter. You want one that uses bannana-jack leads (which are the same size as the plugs in the reel). In that price range, analog meters will be better than digital ones (cheap digital meters without an auto-ranging feature can be slow to refresh the display and may miss transient breaks). Get stackable bananna jack leads, which will allow you to plug in the male pins of floor cords and body cords as well. This'll be a cheap but very useful investement for your club. PM me and I'll be glad to give instructions on how to test if you need them.

Heh, that sounds an awful lot like work. I fence sabre, remember.

But seriously, we need to get a designated armourer, if we can just get someone interested in the job. We even have funds to send them to an armoring workshop for training and everything...

I've been suggesting foy years that a good basic toolbox would be a good thing for the club to get. Alas, everyone else seems to prefer to put the money into buying more electric foils for the foilists to break---and don't ask me why we let people who have been fencing for years or decades continue to use and abuse club equipment instead of their own.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Or Tauber's solution (with Uhlmann reels naturally rather than the Faveros) to drop them all below floor level.

-B

How does that work? How does the cable get from below floor level to above floor level without running over the edge of the recess? Sounds rather frictional to me.