Sweeping parries

[drippingwet]

What's this about Germans having a predilection for sweeping parries? I can remember Thomas Endres appeared to like sweeping, but none of the modern German fencers spring to mind as sweepers.

What are advantages and disadvantages of sweeping parries? Do/did the Germans use them indescriminantly or is there a 'right time' to use them?

[drippingwet]

I thought I'd resurrect this and give it another chance, just in case people in the know didn't get a chance to see it.

I'm just really wondering about them. I'm not exactly sure when a parry stops being neat and to the point (so to speak), and becomes a sweep e.g. parry 6 from an 8 guard - sweep or or not?

[garyhayenga]

Originally Posted by drippingwet

I thought I'd resurrect this and give it another chance, just in case people in the know didn't get a chance to see it.

I'm just really wondering about them. I'm not exactly sure when a parry stops being neat and to the point (so to speak), and becomes a sweep e.g. parry 6 from an 8 guard - sweep or or not?

When it passes through more than it's beginning and ending lines. As sweep from 8 to 6 starts in 8, passes through 7 and high 7 (4 line with different hand position and blade direction and then finishes in 6. A simple 6 to 8 parry involves mostly lifting the blade and very little circular motion.

The most popular sweeping parry, until recently, has been the sweep from 6 through 7 to high 7 and then flick to shoulder. Some include 8 in that sweep.

gary hayenga

[drippingwet]

I think it's possibly easier to open up an opponent who uses sweeping parries. Covering huge areas takes time - once your fruitless parry is out in space, you're wide open. Anyone have any replies to my first post in the thread?

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by drippingwet

I think it's possibly easier to open up an opponent who uses sweeping parries. Covering huge areas takes time - once your fruitless parry is out in space, you're wide open. Anyone have any replies to my first post in the thread?

I'm amazed you haven't thought this through yet.

If one finds the blade, one has the right to riposte, regardless of how much target might be exposed. A sweeping parry makes it easier to find the blade by covering more lines, allowing one to use the large muscle groups, and positions one to make a riposte with flick, which was very difficult to stop.

Is there a reason why you don't see them? Yes, people have learned to stop the flick, people were adjusting their games in anticipation of the new timings, and the new timings make a riposte from a sweeping parry very difficult to land.

So, the sweeping parries are slowly disappearing.

[drippingwet]

Achilleus, I get everything else, but when you mentioned the bit about right to riposte, did you fail to realise that I was saying you're dangerously open after a fruitless sweeping parry?

If I see an attack coming, I can go for the parry nice and neat. Why would I waste time sweeping the entire area? Aren't sweeps, with their large movement just easier to derobe?

And with the new timings, back flicks still seem very plausible, especially if you've got blade that whips like wet pasta.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by drippingwet

Achilleus, I get everything else, but when you mentioned the bit about right to riposte, did you fail to realise that I was saying you're dangerously open after a fruitless sweeping parry?

I took your comment differently. Obviously if you miss the parry, any parry, you have opened yourself up. Recovery from a smaller parry is faster, but realistically, if you miss the parry, your hit.

Originally Posted by drippingwet

If I see an attack coming, I can go for the parry nice and neat. Why would I waste time sweeping the entire area? Aren't sweeps, witheir large movement just easier to derobe?

It depends on how the attack is being delivered, but no, they aren't always easier to derobe. The speed at which they come makes it difficult to avoid. This is one of the reasons why foil fencers attack with the arms bent, and rely on coupes over disengages. Or at least did. Because a straight arm attack gets found very easily by the big sweep.

Originally Posted by drippingwet

And with the new timings, back flicks still seem very plausible, especially when if you've got blade that whips like wet pasta.

Oh, back flicks are still plausible. I can land them with a stiff blade, but the reliability is much lower. It makes much more sense with the new timings to make a smaller parry, decided where the open target and make the riposte, with flick if neccessary.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by achilleus

If one finds the blade, one has the right to riposte, regardless of how much target might be exposed. A sweeping parry makes it easier to find the blade by covering more lines, allowing one to use the large muscle groups, and positions one to make a riposte with flick, which was very difficult to stop.

aren't sweeping parries slower and thus easier to disengage/decieve around??

[garyhayenga]

Originally Posted by glowstix

aren't sweeping parries slower and thus easier to disengage/decieve around??

The difficulty in disengaging a sweeping parry is where to disengage to (you're not sure which direction to disengage). I.E. you feint in four and you're looking for a four parry and instead you get a counter-clockwise sweeping parry from 6 to 6, or clockwise from 6 to 8. You can coupe over it (this is usually the best solution) but then you give up the advantage you would gained with a small quick disengage. And you're right back to fighting for tempo again. It works out about the same in the end. If you're equally good at both actions of course.

gary hayenga

[garyhayenga]

Originally Posted by drippingwet

I think it's possibly easier to open up an opponent who uses sweeping parries. Covering huge areas takes time - once your fruitless parry is out in space, you're wide open. Anyone have any replies to my first post in the thread?

Due to the principle of angular momentum, it takes very little more time to make a sweeping parry than it does a conventional parry, the wrist moves in only a slightly larger circle and despite the tip and blade moving in a much larger circle.

The two difficulties with the sweeping parry is first the blade has much more momentum, so it is very difficult to stop or reverse the direction of the parry unless you have a *really* strong wrist. With most people I can usually just coupe them to death. But against Sean McClain (a U.S. fencer who you may know nothing about) he uses them against me constantly and can reverse the direction of his blade and parry before I can finish my lunge (I am notoriously slow, but sneaky). Against quicker fencers he has to use them much more judiciously.

The second problem with it is that a sweeping parry covers much less depth than a conventional parry, say a foot deep instead of two feet for a conventional parry and this gives the attacker a greater margin for error on their feint-attack.

As to answering your first post, I have no idea about the "Germans" preferences. But I'm quite sure they do nothing "indiscriminately" or they would get killed. It doesn't matter how well you do something if you do anything indiscriminately a decent fencer will use it against you.

I personally would use sweeping parries against a fencer with a very fast disengage lunge to force him to make coupe attacks instead or to use second intention (prevent him from doing what he wants to/is best at). This has the added benefit of making my opponent think (or feel) that they can (or need) to make their feints closer to me then usual and then I make a conventional parry and they're too close.

It's just another way of playing with the distance and changing what your opponent can do and the distance they can do it at.

gary hayenga