What is your biggest obstacle in fencing?

[Grasshopper]

In fencing, there are several critical success factors that are needed for perform excellently. A deficiency in any one of those factors is often enough to hold you back from achieving your potential. For example, the critical factors for you might be:

Distance, footwork, attack techniques, defense techniques, speed, endurance, blade work, parries, counter attacks.

Try to assign a number for yourself from 1 to 10 in each of these factors. What number do you assign to yourself? Well, to reach a very high level in your sport, you have to be at least a 7 in each critical area.

And here is the catch: your weakest factor sets the level at which you can perform all the other factors. If you have 8's across the board, and a 4 for one, you will never be able to fence at higher than a 4 level.

So, what is your biggest obstacle in fencing well? What is the one main obstacle in your fencing that is holding you back from being much better?

Everyone has one. It is usually something that you don't "like" doing, and as a result, you avoid it and don't get better at it.

If you can identify your biggest obstacle, you can throw your whole heart and intellectual capacity into conquering it. It might take weeks, it might take months, but if you can overcome your one greatest obstacle you will make drastic improvements in your overall level.

It is this kind of self-knowledge that makes a huge difference in the long run.

Fencing is kind of like a horse race.

In a horse race, the top prize usually goes to the horse finishes a "nose" faster. The #1 horse beats the #2 horse by a nose, but gets 10 times the prize money. That doesn't mean that the #1 horse is 10 times better than the #2 horse. It is just a bit better in every critical factor.

Fencing is like this too. The guy who gets the gold medal is not 10 times better than the #2 guy or the guys who make the top-16. He is just slightly better in the critical factors that determine success. He is just a nose better.

So what is your biggest obstacle in fencing?

[Mo]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

In fencing, there are several critical success factors that are needed for perform excellently. A deficiency in any one of those factors is often enough to hold you back from achieving your potential. For example, the critical factors for you might be:

Distance, footwork, attack techniques, defense techniques, speed, endurance, blade work, parries, counter attacks.

Try to assign a number for yourself from 1 to 10 in each of these factors. What number do you assign to yourself? Well, to reach a very high level in your sport, you have to be at least a 7 in each critical area.

And here is the catch: your weakest factor sets the level at which you can perform all the other factors. If you have 8's across the board, and a 4 for one, you will never be able to fence at higher than a 4 level.

So, what is your biggest obstacle in fencing well? What is the one main obstacle in your fencing that is holding you back from being much better?

Everyone has one. It is usually something that you don't "like" doing, and as a result, you avoid it and don't get better at it.

If you can identify your biggest obstacle, you can throw your whole heart and intellectual capacity into conquering it. It might take weeks, it might take months, but if you can overcome your one greatest obstacle you will make drastic improvements in your overall level.

It is this kind of self-knowledge that makes a huge difference in the long run.

Fencing is kind of like a horse race.

In a horse race, the top prize usually goes to the horse finishes a "nose" faster. The #1 horse beats the #2 horse by a nose, but gets 10 times the prize money. That doesn't mean that the #1 horse is 10 times better than the #2 horse. It is just a bit better in every critical factor.

Fencing is like this too. The guy who gets the gold medal is not 10 times better than the #2 guy or the guys who make the top-16. He is just slightly better in the critical factors that determine success. He is just a nose better.

So what is your biggest obstacle in fencing?

Dude!! Get a life.....

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by Mo

Dude!! Get a life.....

OK...so your biggest obstacles are your sarcastic attitude and repressed anger. You can work on that!

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

OK...so your biggest obstacles are your sarcastic attitude and repressed anger. You can work on that!

hey that wasn't on the list..

anyway, i'll go first:
distance - 7, footwork - 7, attack techniques - 6, defense techniques - 7, speed - 9, endurance - 8, bladework - 6...i'll replace the rest with my own:
timing - 7, tactical understanding/knowledge - 5, mental/psychological resilience - 5. patience - 5.

as you can, my downfall is probably from the neck up. over time and a bit more experience i'll improve on that.

[sabreur]

My biggest weakness is that I don't get to train as much as I would like/should because I have to work for a living and have other responsibilities.

If I was being really picky, I'd say that I have two foilists for masters (even though they are both trained masters, and probably most sabreurs would give their off arms to be able to train with them....) and I need a true sabre master to reach the highest highs.

All the things that you mention: "Distance, footwork, attack techniques, defense techniques, speed, endurance, blade work, parries, counter attacks" fundamentally depend on the quality of the training you receive, and the amount of time you have to devote to the sport. Unless you are in a place where you can receive world-class lessons and training, you're not going to be world-class, regardless of the personal effort you make to overcome your shortcomings... quite frankly, unless you have the chance to fence and train at a world-class level, you will be blind to what it actually means. Not because of any personal shortcomings, but because you can't know if you don't experience it. Think about Crash's (Kevin Costner) riff on being in the Show in Bull Durham.

MR

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Mainly just living in an area that is fencing deficient, and only fencing twice a week, and not having consistent coaching. In fencing, my biggest problem right now are my parry ripostes.

[pacer]

I agree with sabreur, work can demand a lot of time and i'm just to exhausted to practice. I haven't been to the club in a month now because of work demands.

[mrbiggs]

The biggest one is stupidity. I mean REAL stupidity. Like, on an average of one touch in a pool bout, I will do this move: 1. My opponent starts his attack. 2. I extend, and continue retreating 3. My opponent finishes. GAH! It's frustrating.

Second is my footwork--I'm having trouble stopping when my opponent parries or counterattacks, turning (IMHO) an excellent marching attack into nothing.

[foilz]

It's distance. And the clarity that comes with getting away from the strike zone, in order to think and plan and respond.

I'm attacky by nature, feel the pressure of the clock, feel guilty wasting time (it's better spent attacking!), forget to use distance as an offence (and as a defense), and get hit regularly when I shouldn't be getting hit.

Your comments about this in other threads have helped me. I'm still working on it.

My sense is that if I can master distance, footwork will follow, and my attacks (and defences) will take a quantum leap.

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by sabreur

Unless you are in a place where you can receive world-class lessons and training, you're not going to be world-class, regardless of the personal effort you make to overcome your shortcomings... quite frankly, unless you have the chance to fence and train at a world-class level, you will be blind to what it actually means. Not because of any personal shortcomings, but because you can't know if you don't experience it. Think about Crash's (Kevin Costner) riff on being in the Show in Bull Durham.

MR

As much as I sympathize with the "I don't have the perfect training situation" argument, I disagree (never listen to Costner). Many top fencers came from obscure locations without training at a world class facility or with world class opponents. Yes, they went to world competitions, but they didn't train with world class level fencers. The key is finding out for yourself the one major reason why you lose most bouts to better fencers, and striving to overcome it.

Any idiot can join the strongest club in the world, train everyday and get lessons 24/7 and expect to become world class.

To become world class without that environment takes something extra, and I believe that is crystal clear self-knowledge and self-discipline to improve in the specific area that will make the biggest difference.

Join competitions with the strongest fencers you can find. And when you lose, identify your biggest obstacle (inside yourself) to beating them. Before the next competition, devote all your energy to conquering that one thing. Go to next competition, and see what happens. Repeat.

Difficult yes, impossible no.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

Any idiot can join the strongest club in the world, train everyday and get lessons 24/7 and expect to become world class.

This has been attempted over and over. People join world class clubs, train constantly and still cannot beat more talented hard working fencers. An excellent fencer has a complete package that includes a work ethic, the ability to learn, natural ability, an excellent coach and bucket loads of money.

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

To become world class without that environment takes something extra, and I believe that is crystal clear self-knowledge and self-discipline to improve in the specific area that will make the biggest difference.

Join competitions with the strongest fencers you can find. And when you lose, identify your biggest obstacle (inside yourself) to beating them. Before the next competition, devote all your energy to conquering that one thing. Go to next competition, and see what happens. Repeat.

Difficult yes, impossible no.

What is your experience with this? Can you name ten fencers who fit your proprosed profile? How do you know what that one thing is? How do you know what you are doing wrong? Maybe you are not doing anything wrong, maybe the other person is a little smarter or a little stronger and works just as hard as you can.
Fencing is like any other sport, it takes something extra just to be at the top. Without the extra you are everyone else.
Being a top athlete is a numbers game. You have to have the winning combination of all the factors. I know several fencers who are world class but don't have the money to go to the meets. If someone can afford to go to an extra meet or two then they will kick you off a team no matter how well you finish.
Fencing is a cut throat sport, Grasshopper you seem to need some world experience. Thinks are not always as they seem....

[Grasshopper]

What is your experience with this?

19 years of fencing, competed in over 15 countries, member of cadet, junior and senior national teams, competed in WC's, Pan-Am Games, Universiade, finaled in several US Div 1 events.

Can you name ten fencers who fit your proprosed profile?

Cliff Bayer (WC champ), Sherraine McKay (WC champ), Ota Yuki (10th WC rankings), Elvis Gregory (multiple WC champion), Josh McGuire (multiple junior and senior titles, olympian, the British kid who finaled at in Athens (name escapes me), do you really need 4 more? All the above came from locations with few to none world class fencers around them where fencing is regarded as a minor sport.

How do you know what that one thing is? How do you know what you are doing wrong? Maybe you are not doing anything wrong, maybe the other person is a little smarter or a little stronger and works just as hard as you can.

You have to use your head and figure it out. That is the challenging part. There is no "right" and "wrong" in fencing. There is only "win" and "lose". If you are losing, there is a reason, and you have to find it.

Fencing is like any other sport, it takes something extra just to be at the top. Without the extra you are everyone else.
Being a top athlete is a numbers game. You have to have the winning combination of all the factors.

Yes, I totally agree with you.

Fencing is a cut throat sport, Grasshopper you seem to need some world experience. Thinks are not always as they seem...

Trust me, I know what fencing is. And yes, we all need more world experience.

[sabreur]

Oh green springy one--

This is sort of a parallel to the "should 14-year-olds with a year of fencing experience be teaching others to fence" thread.

First of all, I don't know about everyone on your list, but Elvis Gregory benefited from a very sophisticated coaching and training structure. I'd be surprised if some/most of the others on your list didn't have similar support.

Wherein lies the (mis?)understanding about my first post.... I don't necessarily mean that you need a TBB type structure, but I do think you need a world-class master--your drive, etc., can lead you to succeed, but only if you get the structure. If you have the drive, you can get the competition experience you need--if you have a truly world-class master, he will grow the training group you need (I point again to Maestro Burkan and Nellya).

This may be elitist, and quite frankly I don't give a damn. Fencing expertise is transmitted through lessons and face-to-face discussions with masters--you can't figure it out on your own--at least not enough of it to compete with those who are as smart, dedicated, focused, etc. as you are,... but have the benefit of a master.

You can be talented and get so far without this kind of instruction, or you can be untalented and get so far even with such instruction... but you aren't going to make it as far on your own as you will with the guidance of a master.

MR

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by sabreur

You can be talented and get so far without this kind of instruction, or you can be untalented and get so far even with such instruction... but you aren't going to make it as far on your own as you will with the guidance of a master.

MR

i agree, but for most of us here in the US, we have to deal with the situation we're in. the best i can do right now is a lesson every 2 weeks if that much. if thats the case, then so be it. the time we spend sitting around wishing for the type of training/coaching that thompson, kelsey or tiomkin or anyone of those guys have, we could use this time to make the best of our crappy situations.

[hpfencing]

Other than NOT having true fencing master in our area my obstacle/hold-up in fencing is myself.

I hesitate and overthink on the strip. i sometimes need to go for the gusto.

I'm constantly saying "You caught me thinking" many ppl don't understand that but it's what is holding me back right now.

[drippingwet]

Well here's my 2 pence (I'm English):

I don't think fencing is as hard to be succesful as some sports. Take sailing for instance (my baby until fencing took over). At least in fencing you can fence whenever, unlike sailing where the club maybe only meets a couple of times a week, weather dependant, etc. Therefore it's perhaps even more important to start young just so you can get the experience. I don't think boat racing is harder than fencing, it's just that fencing is more accessable, and so it might be easier to get good at.

I've also had a fling with skiing before now, great sport. But you need a mountain. Then you need snow. Then you need lifts. Then you you need all the things that fencers need. In fact skiing is @#$%*^ fantastic, but it's too inaccessable for many.

Formula 1 - yeah right!

So we are fortunate in fencing, you can go far. If you start fairly young, I wouldn't be surprised if you could make it to World Cup level 10-15 years later. But there seems to be a cream layer that is in another world, where you need something extra. Fencing isn't a natural thing. We aren't born with fencing technique and extensive tactics and strategy, it's aquired, like a language. Natural fencing ability is what? Good lung capacity? IQ? I'm not sure this counts for much without coaching, just like it wouldn't count for much in learning a foreign language without a teacher. So if you want to be in that cream, then you should get some serious coaching. If you don't get the coaching, then, however unappealing the thought is, perhaps dreams will always be dreams because you have to remember that humans are humans and we don't seem to have the capacity to perform miracles.

So keyword is coaching (from the best).

Actually, why do we do sport? Is it to prove that we're better than others? So what if we beat others? Once you've achieved everything - Olympics et al, what's left? Wouldn't it be better to spend our lives as medical researchers, or doctors, or teachers, or on anything more important than a game? Just wondering???

ooh, by the way. If you were given the choice to spend a year fencing in Paris, Tauber, or USA, which would you choose?

[Kat]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

To become world class without that environment takes something extra, and I believe that is crystal clear self-knowledge and self-discipline to improve in the specific area that will make the biggest difference.

"Crystal clear self-knowledge" does not get you to the top of the world ranking in fencing, it is money (your own or your club's/sponsor's money). Money is required for training and also in order to travel to competitions to get a ranking in the first place. Having all the talent in the world isn't going to buy you a plane ticket to the world championships, but it will certainly help you get good results if you are able to go.

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

Cliff Bayer (WC champ), Sherraine McKay (WC champ), Ota Yuki (10th WC rankings), Elvis Gregory (multiple WC champion), Josh McGuire (multiple junior and senior titles, olympian, the British kid who finaled at in Athens (name escapes me), do you really need 4 more? All the above came from locations with few to none world class fencers around them where fencing is regarded as a minor sport.

For a long time during the mid to late '90s, there were several extremely good Cuban foilists (including Gregory). I wouldn't say that he had "few to none world class fencers around" him, as this simply wasn't the case. He also had access to a very high level of training and had the funding to travel to a lot of competitions, allowing him to reach the heights that he did. Also, Ota Yuki goes to a lot of world class competitions around the world and so frequently fences the best foilists around. If neither of these two foilists had the money to travel as much as they have done, then they would simply not have been able to achieve what they did.

Also, I wouldn't include the "British kid" that did well at the Olympics either (I assume you're taking about Richard Kruse). He has the money to train in Europe, has a Polish coach and is able to travel to many international competitions. My point is that he hardly lacks a high level of fencing or training.

I don't mean to say that the fencers that you mentioned are not talented or very good fencers in their own right, Gregory is one of the best foilists in history. But in modern-day fencing, it is very possible to become very good if you have enough money to train and fence with the best, regardless of your country of origin.

By the way, in relation to your ranking system (what this thread was originally about), I don't agree that "your weakest factor sets the level at which you can perform all the other factors". Fencing is about focusing on strengths and exploiting weaknesses, the best fencers in the world are not perfect, but are still extremely good. For example, let's say I had a score of 10 in all areas except endurance, in which I had a score of 2. By your system my overall score would be 2, thus making me a poorer fencer than someone else who got scores of 3 in every one of the areas .

In the real world of fencing, if I had scores of 8 in everything except the field of "counter attacks" in which I had a score of 6, then I would fence to my strengths and limit the exposure of my weakness (which happens to be counter attacking). This does not limit the strength of my footwork or attacking or defence or anything else, but just means that I am better at some things than at others. So using this example, I would simply counter attack less than someone whose strength was in counter attacking.

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by glowstix

i agree, but for most of us here in the US, we have to deal with the situation we're in. the best i can do right now is a lesson every 2 weeks if that much. if thats the case, then so be it. the time we spend sitting around wishing for the type of training/coaching that thompson, kelsey or tiomkin or anyone of those guys have, we could use this time to make the best of our crappy situations.

Yes, and I have great admiration for you, and a great sense of my own luck in terms of the training that I get to do. I hope that I don't imply in any way that I think people shouldn't fence if they can't train in an optimum situation... for your own growth and development, you can achieve a lot. I answered the way that I did because the question was phrased in terms of international results.

MR