presiding

[drippingwet]

What are you're thoughts on being a competitive fencer and a qualified referee? Are there any top fencers who do this much?

If you're gonna be a quilified ref, do you have to be able to ref all three weapons or not?

Are there any events where you are paid/expenses?

I've had a lot of experience reffing, in my club and at a couple of competitions, and I think it would be good to get qualified and start on the road to getting an FIE licence. How long would this process take?

Thanks.

[drippingwet]

ooh, I'm also wondering what a ref should be watching/focusing on in a bout. I can ref fine, I've been doing it for ages, but I just want to know about the ways in which I can improve it. Do you use peripheral vision to watch both sword arms simultaneously for instance? For example, if a fencer is slowly extending and you miss it, and give the AIP to the other fencer, what should you have been doing to make sure that you don't miss these things?

[Boo Boo]

Originally Posted by drippingwet

What are you're thoughts on being a competitive fencer and a qualified referee? Are there any top fencers who do this much?

I think it isn't a bad idea, if you can find the time: most people find travelling to 6 or 7 world cups (in addition to all of the domestic events) take up enough time... People like rest and time to train. That's why most fencers tend to wait until they have retired from very competitive fencing.

There are some out there - Nick Payne (Men's Foil) is an FIE qualified ref, sp is Jo Beadsworth (Women's Epee). Both are top British Fencers, both referee abroad occassionally, although NOT at the events which they are competing at (i.e. Jo referees at senior men's or junior A-grades, whilst she competes at senior women's A-grades).

Originally Posted by drippingwet

If you're gonna be a quilified ref, do you have to be able to ref all three weapons or not?

No, you just have to be qualified in one weapon to referee at A-grades. EXCEPT if you want to referee at the Olympics or the World Championships - in which case you must be qualified in at least two.

Originally Posted by drippingwet

Are there any events where you are paid/expenses?

If you referee at an A-grade/World Cup, then an amount to cover your expenses is paid. This is paid by the fencers travelling with you (and not the BFA).

I have never been to an UK Open just to referee (if I am there, I am always fencing!) - so I have no idea what they give refs. Don't think it is much though.

When I referee at the British Youth Championships and England Youth Championship, they give you accomodation (it's a two day competition, so hotel for one or two nights), take you out for dinner, free food and drink during the day and petrol money.

At the Junior & Cadet British Championships, they will only give you one night in a hotel and £20 towards petrol. Because I live about 200 odd miles from the venue (Norwich), I don't tend to do this: 10 hours in a car (we are on the "wrong" side of London") during the weekend and being out of pocket (we would need to stay another night) makes this impractical...

UK referees are not paid for refereeing - someone did ask me that when I was refereeing at the BYCs one year. To which I laughed and said "no, my expenses are paid, but I give up my time to give something back". Think the person who asked thinks I am mad!

If you want to be a referee, do it because you enjoy it. With any luck, you will get your expenses covered (but not always!) and - if you do get to FIE level - you will get to travel and enjoy some world class fencing. You will probably get a lot of abuse along the way.... No matter how correct you are, someone will often see it different and tell you in no uncertain times (even if you have FIE qualifications in all three weapons... ).

Originally Posted by drippingwet

I've had a lot of experience reffing, in my club and at a couple of competitions

I hate to break this to you, but that is not much experience... it is a great start, but refereeing for a couple of years one to two nights a week at the same club is not a lot... when you fence in a club you get to know your clubmates moves/intentions - so it is easier to referee than two people you have never seen before...

Originally Posted by drippingwet

How long would this process take?

The people I know who have become FIE qualified refs were pretty much "fast tracked" - since they are top 10 fencers and it was before they have tightened up on the UK refereeing qualifications.

You would be better off either approaching the people that I suggested you talk to (Mike Thornton, Ian Hunter or John Ramsay) OR asking this question on the UK forum (where one of them would read it). This forum is very US-centred and I doubt m/any people would be able to ask.

Boo

[Boo Boo]

Originally Posted by drippingwet

For example, if a fencer is slowly extending and you miss it, and give the AIP to the other fencer, what should you have been doing to make sure that you don't miss these things?

Sounds as though you are focussing too much on one thing if you miss something like that... you need to be able to take in the whole picture - looking at any one thing wont work.

Boo

[Schiavona]

Boo's right. You have 'widen' your focus, not narrow it. Try to watch ALL the action and get a feel for the flow of the bout. I'm sorry, but that's the best I can put it. At least I didn't say, "Be the bout, DW. Be the bout."

[reawl]

Well in the states, most events will pay you to ref, unless it is a very small event where they are taking volunteers. State division events usually pay $10/hr USD so that's $90 or so for a full day of directing. I will usually direct any and all weapons that do not overlap with an event I'm fencing that day. Sometimes I will go only to direct, sometimes I will go only to fence, depends on my mood and if I'm needed.

I encourage everyone to both direct and fence. The idea being that it is easier to watch and understand the action when you're standing to the side, and not actually fencing. Then when you get on the strip you can apply your observation skills while fencing.

What to watch: In epee, just watch to floor. If you hear the buzzer you can look up. But if you aren't looking at the floor you could miss someone stepping off, a touch on the floor, or a touch on one's own toe during infighting.

Foil and Sabre you just do your best to take it all in. You can ignore things that are not important, but do your best to see everything.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by reawl

Well in the states, most events will pay you to ref, unless it is a very small event where they are taking volunteers. State division events usually pay $10/hr USD so that's $90 or so for a full day of directing. I will usually direct any and all weapons that do not overlap with an event I'm fencing that day. Sometimes I will go only to direct, sometimes I will go only to fence, depends on my mood and if I'm needed.

Pay is HIGHLY dependent on location. By "state division events" reawl likely is referring to what events in his area (Indiana) pay.

For reference, New England division pays referees only for open events and national qualifiers. All other events a referee earns an entry fee waiver to a future event (value $10-20). For the events where they do hire referees the pay is $100/day. How long a day is depends on a number of factors and can be anything from a typical full fencing day (9am-6+pm) down to just a few hours (say for a "day" of WS-only refereeing).

Most of the other divisions around New England have most events self-refereed or volunteer refereed. Others pay $75-100/day. Collegiate meets in the area pay ~$125/day for the local conferences, $100 for the club leagues, and some higher figure for ECAC-hired refs.

The USFA pays for national events at a rate of between $20/day and $100/day depending on the qualifications of the referee. They additionally pay travel expenses, hotel costs, and a $20/day per diem.

New Jersey pays referees for larger events. Their payrate is $40/weapon where doing a weapon means pools and at least 4 DEs.

Different areas can have vastly different pay rates. One of the fun things about fencing in the US is that very little (administratively-speaking) holds across various regions and different divisions. Lots of different systems out there, lots of ways of organizing things. There are few absolutes in this country in how things are run.

-B :)

[Boo Boo]

Ok, thanks guys, make us British people jealous...

Boo

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

Ok, thanks guys, make us British people jealous...

Boo

Boo, don't cry. Paying refs at the division level isn't all that old +-20 years. Maybe Great Britian will grow up too.........

[Boo Boo]

Originally Posted by Schiavona

Boo, don't cry. Paying refs at the division level isn't all that old +-20 years. Maybe Great Britian will grow up too.........

I think that you were looking for the "flying pig" smiley there...

In many ways GB does follow the states (although it takes us longer to get there!) - shops open on Sundays, multiplex cinemas, fast food...

In other ways - like fencing being more of a "commercial concern" (not the right word, but can't find one to explain what I mean...) - not sure we will ever get there.... In the UK, people aren't prepared to pay more to get more (i.e. more better refs, all copper pistes, permanant salles that are open 7 days a week).

Boo
(would love to move to California... )