equipment strength

[drippingwet]

I'm wondering how to appreciate the strength of my mask and uniform. For instance, my mask is 1600N, but I have nothing to compare 1600N with.

P.S. if you've got a 1600N mask, or whatever, is that just the strength of the bib, with the mesh being of the same strength on any mask?

[DHCJr]

The 1600 is the bib only. That is the same for any current FIE mask. Also the mesh for all FIE mesh are tested a standard, so they can be considered the same.

It is likely that with a 1600 newton bib, that your mask is an FIE mask. Therefore the mesh will be stronger than a non-FIE mask.

[telkanuru]

1600N of force is approximately what is exerted by a 160kg guy sitting on you.

[noodle]

1600 newtons ~= 360 lbs

[S. Hunter]

Is that on any one point on the mask, or spread across it?

[telkanuru]

Look in the rulebook for specs on the testing devices, but I hope you know what a mask punch looks like...

[CvilleFencer]

It is basically the force spread across 4 individual strands of mesh applied in a piercing manner, such as would happen with a broken blade. I forget the exact dimensions of the punch but it is basically about the size and shape of an average drywall or roofing nail IIRC.

[tsalyards]

What does 1600 newtons mean in terms of protection with clothing? For example, will a 1600 newton bib stop a low velocity bullet?

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by tsalyards

What does 1600 newtons mean in terms of protection with clothing? For example, will a 1600 newton bib stop a low velocity bullet?

The standards are not really transferable. 1600n might stop a .22 short or subsonic long round or a 25 auto but unless it is a really fat and slow, IE subsonic .380 round you are anything higher you are going to be SOL. Even if it is a small caliber bullet you are going to have soft tissue and impact trama damage such as internal bleeding and broken ribs since the FIE gear is not designed to spread the impact, only to resist puncturing. In other words a plastron is not a substitute for even a low grade ballistic vest like a class IIA.

[Junkie]

The important thing is the die that they push at the material with 1600N of force to try and penetrate it, it is a 3mm (roughly 2/16'') piece of metal with a 120 degree pyramidal spike on the top (so in summary pretty small and sharp = lots of pressure from the 1600N). I would fancy the chances of fencing kit stopping a musket ball but a bullet might be asking a bit much, its not what it is designed to do. I would however trust my 1600N mask bib to stop a broken epee from killing me .

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by tsalyards

What does 1600 newtons mean in terms of protection with clothing? For example, will a 1600 newton bib stop a low velocity bullet?

Jeff Bukantz mentioned recently in American Fencing that the plastron is made of "bulletproof Kevlar". Is this true?

[Stylothek]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Jeff Bukantz mentioned recently in American Fencing that the plastron is made of "bulletproof Kevlar". Is this true?

If I am not mistaken, Kevlar is not used as much in the fencing equipment nowadays. There used to be more Kevlar fencing gear a few years ago. It's not exactly "bulletproof Kevlar" anyway, because you'd never make a Jacket just out of 100% Kevlar, there's Nylon, stretchy stuff and whatnot in there. Today most of the equipment is strenghtend with Dyneema which is also used in the ballistic-vests business, I believe.
I'm not 100% sure on all of the points above but I think I read that on the Allstar website under "more information" on the jacket's page.

[DHCJr]

There are a few misconceptions in the above. First the 1600 Newton has nothing to do with the mesh of the mask, only the bib. Check M.27.7 and appendix A.

Also on Kevlar. If you were to believe the USFA rule book, the bib must be made at least partially of Kevlar (Appendix A.4.3). I haven't checked the FIE rule book, but I believe the USFA has not updated the Appendix to the current FIE rules as there is no mention of visor masks or designs on the mask, which I know is in the FIE rule book.

[neevel]

The relevant quantity for puncture resistance is not force (newtons) but pressure (force/unit area). The FIE specs on Newtons are understood to mean "Newtons applied to our specified tester". As has been mentioned, 1600 N is about force generated by the weight of a 160 kg (352 lb) person. Now, if a person that heavy were to sit on you, you'd certainly experience some discomfort and trouble breathing, but your skin wouldn't be penetrated. If the same 160kg weight was applies to the 4-mm square FIE test probe, it would punture your skin.

To get a general sense of what some of the forces involved are, go get a mask tester. The specified test force is 117.6 N (equivalent to the weight of 12 kg). Press it against a hard tabletop to see how much force it take to push the probe in. Now imagine putting your hand between the tip and the table and pushing down.

-Dave

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by neevel

To get a general sense of what some of the forces involved are, go get a mask tester. The specified test force is 117.6 N (equivalent to the weight of 12 kg). Press it against a hard tabletop to see how much force it take to push the probe in. Now imagine putting your hand between the tip and the table and pushing down.

-Dave

Just don't do this on a nice table or your spouse/parent will be quite upset with you...

[Alain]

Originally Posted by tsalyards

What does 1600 newtons mean in terms of protection with clothing? For example, will a 1600 newton bib stop a low velocity bullet?

Yup - I remember one of my coach saying that, if you wear 1600N kit at medium/close range, it would stop a low-calibre shot. You'd still die, though, because the impact of the bullet would collapse your ribcage. Then again, your family could still sell your kit

Good hunting...

[neevel]

Originally Posted by Alain

Yup - I remember one of my coach saying that, if you wear 1600N kit at medium/close range, it would stop a low-calibre shot. You'd still die, though, because the impact of the bullet would collapse your ribcage. Then again, your family could still sell your kit

Good hunting...

OT, but if the the bullet were stopped from penetrating you'd be basically OK, aside from a painful bruise and perhaps a cracked rib. If you've ever seen or carried out a ballistic-pendulum experiment in a physics class, you'd see just how much total energy the bullet has. In one instance of this (when I was taking my intro physics course freshman year in college), the .22 LR bullet swung a ~30 cm long X 10 cm diameter suspended piece of wood about 30 cm back on impact. The "bullet carrying the bad guy back 3 yards though a plate glass window" is pure Hollywood. Any gun that could do that would also knock the shooter back from the recoil.

[Alain]

Originally Posted by neevel

OT, but if the the bullet were stopped from penetrating you'd be basically OK, aside from a painful bruise and perhaps a cracked rib. If you've ever seen or carried out a ballistic-pendulum experiment in a physics class, you'd see just how much total energy the bullet has. In one instance of this (when I was taking my intro physics course freshman year in college), the .22 LR bullet swung a ~30 cm long X 10 cm diameter suspended piece of wood about 30 cm back on impact. The "bullet carrying the bad guy back 3 yards though a plate glass window" is pure Hollywood. Any gun that could do that would also knock the shooter back from the recoil.

A ballistic-pendulum experiment? - that sounds like fun!!! We never did that when I was a kid...
Anyway, it's probably best not to ask someone to shoot you whilst you're wearing your fencing gear... use your brother instead

[Inquartata]

Body armor is made of multiple layers of Kevlar. Even Level I, the lowest protection level made ( and which you can scarcely even find any more, most manufacturers don't make anything below II ) used something like 7 or 8 layers. It was around 1/8" to 1/4" thick. It would stop a .22LR and not much more. Your average fencing jacket is not ven that thick and does not use even that many layers. I doubt it would stop a bullet, barring a special low-velocity round like those El Al uses for airline on-board security.

A bullet will not, it is true, move a human being a great deal. But blunt trauma concentrated into a small area, such as from a bullet, can cause serious internal injuries and has been known to be fatal on occasion. So even if your jacket ( plus your fortunately-overlapping FIE plastron and knickers---what an unlucky shot your attacker was! ) managed to stop a bullet, it still might not be enough.

Still, one supposes it'd probably be better than a plain old t-shirt.

[Alex_Paul]

IMOHO there is no way that FIE reg fencing kit will stop any normal bullet.

If a blade braaks in an unfortunate way and someone heavy is on the end of it it will not even stop that. If you work out the pressure on a sharp piece of blade say 1mm square with a 13 stone athlete fleching at full pelt on the end it is tremendous. It will go straight through any mask mesh bib or clothing the only article of protective clothing that it might not get through is an undamaged see thru mask visor.
Fencing clothing is made withing the constraints of practicality and cost and the rules reflect this.

Ben (Paul) has read this and moaned at me. Apparently he has taken a sharp pointed screwdriver to one of our masks and hit it repeatedly as hard as he can when jammed securely against the floor. He says he couldn't even make a dent so maybe it would not be so easy to penetrate mask mesh especially if the break in the blade had left a large surface area.
My point was more that the clothing is not designed to prevent penetration under all circumstances. It is the best it can be made within the bounds of practicality.
Suit of Armour anyone?!