digital camera

[foildad]

It's time to shop for a new digital camera. I want to be able to capture fencing action shots in poorly lit venues. Any advice? Thanks.

[LordTofuDog-jnr]

Nope.

Well actually, I've got a "Canon Power Shot S45" and it's pretty old. (year and a half or there abouts) I discovered at a competition a while ago that it actually captures foil blades in motion quite well, the only problem it has is its resolution. (not sure but its not great)

I figure if a camera bought second hand ($600 AUS) can capture blades in motion almost any new camera could.

I'm pretty sure what I just said won't help much if at all, but if it does then good.

[onesandzeros]

If you are looking at shooting low-light conditions without using a flash, you need to make sure the camera can shoot with a high ISO (800-1600). Of course your price range also has a lot to do with what kind of camera to get. How much are you looking to spend?

[rrs]

I've got a Canon s400 which I've been really happy with - it even does 'acceptable' video clips of up to 3 mins, and seems to cope fairly well with relatively poor lighting conditions.

[foildad]

If you are looking at shooting low-light conditions without using a flash, you need to make sure the camera can shoot with a high ISO (800-1600). Of course your price range also has a lot to do with what kind of camera to get. How much are you looking to spend?

My current camera tops out at ISO 400. If it went to ISO 1600, does that mean that an equivilent shot would require only 1/4 the exposure time? That would sure help.

I assume the new digital SLRs that go for about $1000 without a lens can shoot at 1600 speed. Anyone know if there are consumer models that shoot at ISO 1600?

[ls14evar]

http://www.dpreview.com/

Probably the most in depth digital camera review site.

You'll need something that can shoot at high iso speeds (800+) with minimal noise. (Most camera get really bad noise at high speed) Also something that has a large aperture or the ability to change lenses. You'll want f2.8 or lower lenses if you can manage it.

Using the shortest lens you can, a tripod and remote trigger will all help get the clearest shots you can.

Remember, for handheld shooting you want 1/X exposure time where x is the MM lens length for 35mm film. IE a 60mm lens would need 1/60th a second or faster exposure to avoid shake.

In an average indoor situation like a fencing tournament you will be anywhere from 7-9 f stops from BDE.

If you can use iso 800 that means at 8 fstops your exposure would be 1/100th @ f2.8

this might work for you
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos300d/

[Capt. Slo-mo]

FD: In addition to the other good advice here (low f-stop lense, higher ISO capability), one other consideration: lag time.

Many of the "consumer" level digital cameras have a very annoying "lag" between when you push the button and when the camera actually takes the picture. This makes taking action pictures very tough.

Look for a camera that allows you to shoot in "bursts" of 2-3 or more exposures, with little or no delay

[edew]

Where's Bernie Cuzzillo to explain everything?

From my personal perspective, there's more than resolution and speed to deal with.

I have an Olympus something-or-another. The problem is that if you turn off the device and then turn it back on, the settings are all reset back to default settings so you need to redo all the futzing to get manual focus or manual shutter speed or even telephoto setting. If you keep the camera on, then you just burn through the batteries.

I'd rather go with a good film camera until they can have digital cameras that don't have such stupid (lack of) functionality.

Get a cheapie digital for those posed photos and similar types. But for competition shots, either go really high end or use film.

Serge Timacheff should also reply if he's ever on this board.

[JEC]

I agree with the recommendations from Capt. and ls14evar. There are many good digital cameras in the market. Pixels are important, but there are many other features that will make a 4 Megapixel camera better for an application than a 6 Megapixel camera.

P.S. Capt. How was filming/taping in Australia? Lucky dog!

[mrbiggs]

FD: In addition to the other good advice here (low f-stop lense, higher ISO capability), one other consideration: lag time.

Many of the "consumer" level digital cameras have a very annoying "lag" between when you push the button and when the camera actually takes the picture. This makes taking action pictures very tough.

Look for a camera that allows you to shoot in "bursts" of 2-3 or more exposures, with little or no delay

Very true. My digital camera has a lag of a good half-second, making action shots basically guesswork.

[grotto]

Your best bet is the "pro-sumer" digitals e.g. the Nikon 5700, Canon S1 etc. especially if you are interested in shooting in the poor mixed lighting of the typical Gym / fencing Salle. these are more than a typical point and shoot but less (in terms of adjustablity, lens etc.) than an entry level Digital SLR.

a good starting point
http://www.dpreview.com/

[ls14evar]

re: Lag

You need to learn pre-focusing for those fast action shots. Anticipate where they are going to happen and find something a similar distance. Depress your shutter button half way and it with focus and white balance for you. Follow the action in frame with the button still half pressed. Now when you depress the shutter the rest of the way, the lag will be greatly reduced.

Bottom line is you're going to need a pretty nice camera to get good shots without a flash. Almost certainly something SLR like.
-B

[OneBadFencer]

I'd recommend the Nikon D70 or a used Nikon D100. The problem with point and shoot cameras is that they usually have a delay and are therefor REALLY hard to shoot action with. A digital SLR is obviously more expensive, but will aslo yield really good results. Yes, it needs to shoot at least ISO 1600, but I think the D70 does. PLUS, you can get some great package deals on the D70 these days. OR pick up a D100 on ebay with a lens or two for a really reasonable price. The only downside of the D100 is that it has a smaller buffer, so you can only shoot 4-6 frames before it has to write to the card. BUT, for my money the D100 is where it's at!

[Capt. Slo-mo]

P.S. Capt. How was filming/taping in Australia? Lucky dog!

Funny story...I fly half way around the world to Australia, open up my tripod case on the first day, and the tripod mounting plate release lever tab falls off in my hand. Spent the rest of the trip mounting and unmounting the camera with a Leatherman.

Oz was hot hot hot, but very gorgeous. Two fatal shark attacks right where we were in Cairns and Adelaide, though. I can't wait to go back and shoot in the western half of the country.

While there, we taped the cooking of and ate: kangaroo, wallaby, camel, barrimundi, crocodile, emu, squid, Barton Bay bugs (small lobster like thing), octopus, and about 20 different fish and steak cuts. Tough work if you can get it.

More to the thread: I've got a Nikon D70, and will be taking it on its maiden voyage in January shooting fencing stills. I'll let you know how that level of digital camera performs.

[Larrison]

I've got several digital cameras, including both a 3.5 megapixel Olympus (C-3040), and a Cannon Digital EOS Rebel (6 megapixel).

For producing really good pictures, I'd recommend 3 megapixels and up -- with 3 megapixels you can make 5x7's and sometimes 8x10's pretty well without a lot of digital artifacts.

But.. as has been identified, the problem with most digital cameras is the delay between pressing the button and the taking of the picture. The Olympus I have, while it produces very good quality pictures (the Olympus has a very good lens), has about a 1/4 to 1/2 delay in taking the picture. You can use a "burst" mode of taking multiple pictures in a short period (like 5 pictures in 3 seconds), to capture action shots -- but its hard to get it right.

The Cannon is pretty much a SLR with near instantaneous shutter response, as well as a burst mode that's a lot faster. But its like 3-4x as expensive.

I've found digital cameras are surprizingly good in low-light situations, although like any optical system, if there isn't enough light you will get more blurring before you get a good picture. The Olympus operated at down to around 1600 ISO equivalent, as does the Cannon. A tripod, or at least a monopod is pretty much required for indoors, fast-action shots without substantial lighting. And if you want really good shots, you'll want to get a system that you can plug in an additional set of lights, or light bar for the top of the camera -- which means back to the digital SLR system.

A basic set up for a digital SLR can be had for around $800-850, at least for the Cannon, with a basic lens. Then you start adding new lenses, filters, tripods, light bar flash, etc...

If that's a bit too much, you might start with a basis point and shoot digital, which will run about 1/3 to 1/2 that much, and just experiment. Once the basic camera and rechargable batteries have been bought, the pictures are essentially free until you print them out -- so you can experiment every which way to see what works and what doesnt.

[Zelda]

Barton Bay bugs (small lobster like thing),

I think you mean Moreton Bay bugs.....;-)

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Might have been thinking of the Balmain bug...but Moreton bay sounds more right. There were several different kinds...all ugly little critters. I can just imagine the early "volunteer" Australian settlers looking at one of the nasty little crustaceans:

Jack: Wot say we eat this beastie?
Julian: You eat it! That be the spawn of the devil, it is!
Jack: Say...what about that strange furry hopping rat yonder?

[Timacheff]

This is a long and involved topic, but allow me to add a few comments. Fencing is very tough to shoot with a consumer digital camera--especially the point-and-shoot type--because, as I'm sure you all know, you can't use a flash, the lighting is poor, the action is fast, and white uniforms work against your white balance. And getting the right position/angle isn't always easy.

I shoot almost completely manually, because it gives me the most control. But I use a high-end pro digital camera, so I can shoot at up to 8.5 frames a second at ISO 3200 (although that's very "noisy"), up to 40 frames without stopping. I often focus, set aperture (F stop), white balance, and shutter speed all manually. I set the camera to the environment before I begin shooting. Fortunately, at big events like world championships & the olympics, you can get one setting that will pretty much last you throughout the event, day after day--although I have to change settings when the lights go up after bout ends, etc. Then all bets are off and I have other settings I jump to immediately, or I use a secondary camera ready-to-go with a flash on, settings prepared, and a different lens, etc.

Shooting in venue like a NAC or nationals is different than world events, where most often, for fencing action where there's good contrast (lighted strip, darkened audience) I set my camera somewhere around ISO 400, 1/400th or 1/500 shutter speed, and aperture at 2.8 (the zoom lenses I use maintain this aperture no matter the focal length ... another high-cost, but necessary pro sports photographer camera feature). I use a Canon 1D Mark II with "L" series Canon lenses.

The NAC/National-type of events require that you accommodate the light (usually sodium-type) factors that can wreak havoc with your colors, differnet colored carpeting, and lots of unpredictable background noise and factors--which means that your automatic white balance is working overtime and probably failing miserably.

If you really want to catch fencing action in the crappy light conditions we often face, consumer cameras will always be a challenge due to their shutter lag, limited ISO settings, and--perhaps worst of all--their cumbersome features navigation for setting things manually.

If you are using a point-and-shoot type camera, try and set things as manually as it allows and leave it on those settings assuming the light is relatively similar/constant. Put it on the highest ISO (which probably isn't that high on a point-and-shoot), open your aperture as wide as possible (the lowest Fstop number), and shoot as fast a shutter speed as you can. Set your white balance to a fluorescent or "light bulb" (Tungsten) setting, depending upon the light in the venue.

I agree with EDEW that if you can't buy at least a "prosumer" SLR digital camera -- the Canon Rebel is a great camera -- with detachable lenses, you may be best-off with a film camera. I say this in spite of having just published the book "Total Digital Photography" (available from John Wiley Publishers; you can see it on Amazon, Barnes&Noble, etc. and it's got quite a bit of detail about fencing photography--please forgive the commercial!).

In Cuba last year, we got permission from the FIE to shoot the prelims with a flash, believe it or not, because the light was SO bad. But this is by far the very rare exception.

In film days, I used to use a Canon EOS 3, which would shoot seven or eight frames a second. It's brain-dead simple to set aperture and speed, and you can use whatever film speed you want -- probably Fuji Press 800 or 1600 is the very best for fencing, and it's VERY forgiving on light conditions (e.g., Tungsten, fluorescent, etc.). You can buy one of these cameras on ebay pretty inexpensively, and they're extremely durable and were the mainstay of photojournalists until digital finally took over. Best of all, you can use the same lenses on that camera that you would on most Canon SLRs, like the Rebel, D60, D30, 10D, 20D, 1DS, and 1D.

If you're really dedicated to taking great action shots, but you don't have the budget for a digital SLR, I suggest you use film for fencing, and have a digital camera for everything else.

If you can afford a bit more, then buy a Canon Rebel or Nikon (I forget the specific model), or buy a OLD Canon 1D -- not the new Mark II, because they're very pricey -- but the one it replaced. It still shoots 7 or 8 frames a second; the only thing is the megapixel size is smaller (4, I think) which is all photojournalists and sports pros needed until recently--but it works great for consumers because they usually aren't blowing things up to giant sizes. The quality is phenomenal, the camera is incredibly durable, it's easy to use, there are quite a few of them available, and they can use any Canon lenses.

There are other things to discuss, such as optical (good!) versus digital (bad!) zooms, white balance, tripod versus handheld versus image stabilization, how close to get, angles of action and focusing skills, Raw versus Jpeg, and so on. Hope this helps.

[esskreemr]

Are you the photographer for Fencingphotos.com?

[Timacheff]

Yes, FencingPhotos.com is my site and I am the FIE photographer.

Serge