fencing... real world defence skills?

[drippingwet]

I was wondering how knowledge of fencing might be useful in other areas of combat...

It's interesting to note that Bruce Lee seemed to have taken many things from western fencing. I'm not sure how a fencer could apply their knowledge to hand to hand combat, but wherever blades are involved, I think maybe a fencer would stand a very good chance. For instance, if some guy broke into your house and had a knife, but you also had a knife at hand, then even if this guy was twice your size, if he didn't know the first thing about technique, tactics, strategy and every other thing that fencers constantly practice - against this sort of person, a simple 'attack on preparation' or 'stop hit' to the hand may be enough to end the attack.

Even with baseball bats for example, I wouldn't be suprised if you could handle a non-fencer attacker quite easily. For instance, what would be a likely stroke used by such a person? A swing to your side perhaps? This seems like a natural action for an untrained attacker. Your response might be to (very easily) distance parry and then take over the attack with a swing to their shins. Attacker perhaps wouldn't have expected such a well composed action from you, and starts shedding tears and clutching shins while you're calling the cops.

What if you're minding your own business, playing some pool, and some drunk walks up with a cue in hand and starts making threats? Even with such a different weapon from a fencing sword, I think the principe might be same. If this guy makes a thrust at you, you could still form parries, etc.

So what are you're thoughts on this, as a defensive capability in the modern world? Even with hand to hand combat, I think there might still be some principle/ideas that could be used when required.

[Elemental]

I think the best self defense skills that fencing will develop is your reflexes and your agility.

The average fencer vs. the average non-athletic type is likely to have quicker response times and faster movements.

In real-life situation if I were attacked by a knife wielding thug and all I had was a knife I would just try to stay the hell out of his way and attempt to find a weapon with more reach or get to a public place. If it came down to an actual fight I would feint with the knife and then kick him in the bollocks as hard as I could. I wouldn't call that a fencing move since it would get me red card.

So my point:

Fencing reflexes/conditioning : very helpfull
Fencing moves/techniques: not likely to be of much use

[Spike327]

Yeah, I agree. Once you've been fencing for a while you can pull off a reflexive distance-parry pretty easily. I think that'd be the most useful thing.

Personally, I think my 'reflexive distance-parry' would be to throw a dog or small child at my attacker and run away. Meh.

[Alain]

Originally Posted by Elemental

I think the best self defense skills that fencing will develop is your reflexes and your agility.

The average fencer vs. the average non-athletic type is likely to have quicker response times and faster movements.

In real-life situation if I were attacked by a knife wielding thug and all I had was a knife I would just try to stay the hell out of his way and attempt to find a weapon with more reach or get to a public place. If it came down to an actual fight I would feint with the knife and then kick him in the bollocks as hard as I could. I wouldn't call that a fencing move since it would get me red card.

So my point:

Fencing reflexes/conditioning : very helpfull
Fencing moves/techniques: not likely to be of much use

Well said, that man. One somewhat tenuous link between the great Mr. Lee and fencing is that, in both cases, combat comes down to the art of hitting, without being hit. Apart from fencing, I also do Tae Kwon-Do. In both sports, you learn what you consider to be useful techniques but, in a real-life fight, you get to do two things very quickly: 1) after all those years of hard work, you finally get to use some of those techniques in a real-life situation; 2) you get to find out if said techniques work.

I agree with the guy before: fencing (and martial arts) improve your fitness, agility, technique, etc... but it's still best not to have to use 'em!

P.S. On a slightly more geeky note: Bruce Lee founded Jeet Kune Do, "The Way of The Intercepting Fist" - which is sort of like épée, if you you think about it, "the art of making the fewest mistakes" (Srecki): everytime someone attacks you, they expose themself to counter-attack...

[jBirch]

All combat boils down to distance and timing. Fencing is pretty good at teaching that stuff and most good fencers have a knack for reading an opponent's movement signals so keeping distance is something that they can do quite well. Everything else (any attack or attempt to deal with the attacker) and they are no better off then any other athlete.

[Thorin]

So when that knife weilding maniac attacks, you can make a beautiful parry, expertly blocking his attack (and a simple attack to the 4 line of all things!). Having parried your expert fencing reflexes let you throw out a lighting fast riposte. Only to find out they don't know or care about right of way at all, and are promptly rimising 5 or 6 times and now you're both pretty well done for.

Good fencing really relies very much on having a well-trained opponent to do it with. What you do works often because the other person has been trained to react that way.

In real life a random attacker who is totally untrained would be the worst thing to face because you'd have *no idea* what they're going to do. What's the old proverb about "The best swordsman doesn't fear the second best, he fears the worst."

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

In a real fight, a strong counter is useful, especially if you stick is longer than the other guys. Having actually been attacked before, I will say that fencing gives you a distance edge that is crucial, especially if said attacker has a weapon.

[LordTofuDog-jnr]

Guy breaks into my house with a knife, what do I do?

A) Grab a foil and start flicking him until he can't take the irritation and leaves.

or

B) Run out the back door nick off before he finds me. All the while hoping I can get to my local police station before my fencing gear is stolen.

[shango]

Hard to flick with a pool cue though. And what if the thief was a fencer?

[Point_Left]

Originally Posted by shango

And what if the thief was a fencer?

Things get interesting...the arguements over who had right of way, and rule infractions would be deafening and it would summon the neighbours.I found this online a while ago. I think it is from the U of Calgary fencing club's website.:

So would fencing be good to learn as a form of self-defence?

Yes, but only if:

You intend to always carry a sharp sword with you.
Your assailant isn't packing pocket artillery.
You realise your assailant isn't likely to listen to arguments about priority or rule infractions.
You don't expect your fencing club to pay your bail when you are arrested for carrying that sharp sword around.

[LordTofuDog-jnr]

Originally Posted by shango

Hard to flick with a pool cue though. And what if the thief was a fencer?

If the guy breaks into my HOUSE, not a bar.

How many fencers would do robberies with an Epee, sabre or foil?
However, if they did use a fencing weapon the point of the flick is to hurt, and score points - but mainly hurt. They'd be so suprised by being flicked during a robbery they'd run away in fear...

[noodle]

fencing teaches very important skills that are already mentioned.

this can reinforce and greatly enhance your current self defence training if you have any. its not going to make you a street fighting expert (just like tae-bo won't make you a friggin kickboxing champion). fencing trains many skills that are very beneficial to fighting and aren't usually trained when training to fight, but fencing alone won't do much. unless happen to have a sword, that is.

edited to add: fencing played the biggest part in bruce lee's philosophy in the area on the economy of motion in martial arts.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Someone once said that reading dozens of books on kung fu theory wouldnt make you a combat master, but beating the crap out of a few people during your lifetime would. Therefore, fencing, since it involves sparring, will improve your combat skills.

[bjacobs]

Ummm...sort of. Fencing will certainly make you good at hitting people with long thin things, and help you keep from getting hit with things. But don't go out starting fights or anything because you can fence.

[ls14evar]

Modern fencing would be next to useless without an appropriate sword. Sure you have the distance and timing down, but you have none of the delivery skills to wound with blunt force trauma. Sabre would be a little better off since the parries are for cutting/slashing attacks, but still, they never have to deliver force.

As sad as it it, the SCA heavy fights are perhaps the best prepared to defend themselves with improvised weapons. Well, some of them are. At least the blocking with one sword, and blow delivery is there.

Me, if someone attacks, I have Berretta 92 FS 9mm waiting for them.
-B

[Irensaga]

Chances are that the guy who picks a fight with you is the type who has already been in his share of street fights. If you aren't the sort who gets into fights that often, this puts you at a disadvantage:

He knows what it's like to get hit and hit back and you don't. Think of newbies at your club: flinching whenever you do anything even vaguely threatening, covering target area, ducking and assuming the fetal position as they throw out futile, half hearted counter-stabs.
The problem is, they haven't gotten over their fear of getting hit. It's probably the same for street fighting. There's a point in street fighting where you realize you won't die if you take a fist to the gut. Once you've learned to handle the fear, you're a much better fighter.

Note: I'm not saying that fencing doesn't help. To an extent, fencing does simulate fighting and you are getting hit. Also, fencing provides you with a framework for approaching a fight situation which builds crucial self-confidence.

All I'm saying is that in a street fight, experience and killer instinct count for more than technical skill (which is why a lot of black belts admit that a seasoned street fighter with no formal training can have a lot of black belts for lunch).

Your better off honing your instincts for staying out of trouble in the first place.

[Inquartata]

Yes...and in a real life-threatening situation your body is going to get an adrenaline dump that will make all of your fencing training and skill go right out the window, at least at first---reread Nadi's duel account, it even affected him. If you're lucky your feel for distance will still function subconsciously and keep you away from harm, but otherwise the only real effective training for an actual fight is actual fights...

[bjacobs]

"All I'm saying is that in a street fight, experience and killer instinct count for more than technical skill (which is why a lot of black belts admit that a seasoned street fighter with no formal training can have a lot of black belts for lunch)."

That's because most formal training and black belts are crap.


"Yes...and in a real life-threatening situation your body is going to get an adrenaline dump that will make all of your fencing training and skill go right out the window, at least at first"

Very true. That's why people often do much worse at their first big fencing competition than they technically should. That's why its incredibly important if you're learning to fight that you get into rings or onto mats and compete with some stranger completely intent on trying to knock your out or submit you. I can point you to some psych. studies that show that under conditions of stress or high arousal (in the more general sense, not sexual arousal) your dominant responses will come out. So the only way you'll actually use what you've practiced is if you train it quite a lot under high pressured situations, against full resistance, making it your instinctive response to realistic levels of contact.

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by drippingwet

I was wondering how knowledge of fencing might be useful in other areas of combat...

It's interesting to note that Bruce Lee seemed to have taken many things from western fencing. I'm not sure how a fencer could apply their knowledge to hand to hand combat, but wherever blades are involved, I think maybe a fencer would stand a very good chance. For instance, if some guy broke into your house and had a knife, but you also had a knife at hand, then even if this guy was twice your size, if he didn't know the first thing about technique, tactics, strategy and every other thing that fencers constantly practice - against this sort of person, a simple 'attack on preparation' or 'stop hit' to the hand may be enough to end the attack.

Even with baseball bats for example, I wouldn't be suprised if you could handle a non-fencer attacker quite easily. For instance, what would be a likely stroke used by such a person? A swing to your side perhaps? This seems like a natural action for an untrained attacker. Your response might be to (very easily) distance parry and then take over the attack with a swing to their shins. Attacker perhaps wouldn't have expected such a well composed action from you, and starts shedding tears and clutching shins while you're calling the cops.

What if you're minding your own business, playing some pool, and some drunk walks up with a cue in hand and starts making threats? Even with such a different weapon from a fencing sword, I think the principe might be same. If this guy makes a thrust at you, you could still form parries, etc.

So what are you're thoughts on this, as a defensive capability in the modern world? Even with hand to hand combat, I think there might still be some principle/ideas that could be used when required.

No. Just no.

[dramamine]

The real world defence skills you stand to gain by fencing are more or less nonexistant. I suppose if you took a high level fencer and a completely untrained person who had never been in a fight before in his life the ability of the fencer to think analytically under pressure would give the fencer an advantage, but seeing as the topic is real world defence skills I'm assuming the person attacking you is probably at least somewhat competent.

If you get jumped/you're about to get in a fight and the only combat experience you have is fencing, use those strong legs you got from doing footwork to run the hell away.