Team Event Strategies

[Elemental]

I'm attending my first team event this Friday.

I understand how the scoring works and that the importance of a strong anchor for your team.

Does that mean that our team should have our weakest member fence first?

Any other tips for ones first time at a team event.

Thanx.

[davesaint]

In a team event I think it is very important to get off to a strong start. If you win your first match it really puts the pressure on your opponent, especially in epee. I usually like to have our 2nd strongest fencer bout first, with the strongest fence in the final bout. I have seen it done other ways, but this does seem to work pretty well.


Dave

[achilleus]

When figuring out the order, one should work backwards. Take a look at the official scoresheet, and you'll see that the 9th bout is 3 vs. 5.

However the first bout is 3 vs. 6.

You want your strongest to close...
So, the team on the left typically uses their strongest fencer at 3, and moves down. While the team on the right would typically place the strongest at 5, then 6, then 4.

So, the first bout is between the closer, and the second strongest of the other team.

[Elemental]

Thanks for the scoresheet. I'll print it out and show it to my team mates. Once we figure out what the teams are gonna be.

[achilleus]

The tricky part comes in matchups...

For instance, you know that their strongest has problems fencing your second strongest. Do you have your second strongest close? Well, that's a great idea, unless they use a different closer.

Minor tactical changes, but in most situations, the strongest competitive fencer should close.

[Victor]

Anyone wanna mention the option of substituting a fourth player and the best strategy for that?

[glowstix]

the strongest competitive fencer should close.

is there ever a time when this is not done?? in the 2002 epee world championship (FRA v RUS) kolobkov didn't anchor..in the final bout it was jeannet v seline. entering the last bout, the score was 33-31 FRA and ended up something like 45-35 FRA, so i was just wondering.

[achilleus]

is there ever a time when this is not done??

Yes. Below is an example of when this is not done.

in the 2002 epee world championship (FRA v RUS) kolobkov didn't anchor..in the final bout it was jeannet v seline. entering the last bout, the score was 33-31 FRA and ended up something like 45-35 FRA, so i was just wondering.

[achilleus]

Seriously though, it depends on the matchups as well.

Perhaps Kolobkov wasn't feeling his best. Perhaps they felt Seline could beat Jeannet. There are a number of reasons why this isn't always the case, but it usually is.

That's why I posted:

in most situations, the strongest competitive fencer should close.

[Victor]

As for substitutions, I pulled this out of Chapter 6, o.44:

"In the course of a match the captain of a team may ask to substitute for a fencer the reserve nominated before the start of the match. This substitution may only be made at the end of a bout. The fencer who has been replaced may not fence again during that match in order to replace a fencer on the strip, even in the case of an accident or unavoidable circumstances. The announcement that a fencer is to be substituted, which must be reported by the Referee to the Bout Committee and to the opposing team captain, must be made at the latest before the beginning of the bout preceding the next bout of the fencer who is to be replaced."

Assuming no one gets hurt (or that you're assuming no one will be hurt), a substitute could be part of your overall team strategy. (shrug) I s'pose. You know, if you're down to the nitty-gritty of specific style match-ups against your opponents.

[achilleus]

As for substitutions, I pulled this out of Chapter 6, o.44:

"In the course of a match the captain of a team may ask to substitute for a fencer the reserve nominated before the start of the match. This substitution may only be made at the end of a bout. The fencer who has been replaced may not fence again during that match in order to replace a fencer on the strip, even in the case of an accident or unavoidable circumstances. The announcement that a fencer is to be substituted, which must be reported by the Referee to the Bout Committee and to the opposing team captain, must be made at the latest before the beginning of the bout preceding the next bout of the fencer who is to be replaced."

Assuming no one gets hurt (or that you're assuming no one will be hurt), a substitute could be part of your overall team strategy. (shrug) I s'pose. You know, if you're down to the nitty-gritty of specific style match-ups against your opponents.

It's done in a number of cases...

I saw it quite a bit at a Sectional Championship last May. The team that used it had 4 strong fencers, and kept their strongest fencer out until the final rotation.

They won the event.

[Elemental]

I doubt we will have a sub since

A: there may not be enough parties from my salle interested

B: This is a more casual tournament (entrance fee is an unwrapped gift) and we are going for fun. Having an alternate who has to sit out more of the fencing than the others doesn't sound like to too much fun.

Although, for more serious comps knowing the rules about an alternate is very helpfull. Thanks Vic.

[Torg]

Does that mean that our team should have our weakest member fence first?

last year, when i had just started fencing, the coach at my high school made sure to give me experience without ruining the chances of winning. as the n00biest fencer, i was put first. my average score: 1-5. on the other hand, i appreciated it very much, and since our strongest fencer went right after me, as well as last, it didn't make any difference at all.

[peet]

If you get the choice, you want to be B team (the one on the right of the bout sheet, IIRC). The reason: B team's anchor fences the second bout, while A team's anchor fences the first bout. So the best that A team's anchor can do is 5 touches, but B team's anchor can make up more than 5 from the previous bout.

Only a small advantage, but in the absence of another reason to choose A or B, might as well take it.

oh yeah: Have Fun! I love fencing team. It's a blast.

-p

[veeco]

In epee, the basic strategy when fencing team bouts can change quite a bit. You can play passivity when your weakest is fencing their strongest. They can do the same to you when your strongest is playing their weakest.

Rule of thumb is that your best fencer will finish. With that in mind, you will have to bet on 3 different scenarios:

1- Before the last bout, the score is tied or close
2- Before the last bout, the score is largely in favor of your team
3- Before the last bout, the score is largely in favor of the opposing team

Scenario #3 is not something you want to happen, of course. So it's safe to say you don't even need a plan in that case (you're basically screwed). I will however list some strategies on what to do when you are trailing in the match at the end of this post.

Scenario #1 is the toughest one. Because at this point, you will have to decide whether you want to have a low score (i.e. something like 25-26) or a high score (40-39).

The advantage of a low score is that your best fencer will have more opportunities to make a difference against their best fencer. In general you will want to have a low score at the end if you think that your best fencer is much much better than their best fencer. This means that you hope that in the last bout, your best fencer will school their best fencer and that the final score will be around something like 45-29.

In contrast, if your best fencer is weaker than their best fencer, or is about the same level, you will want to have a high score at the end. That's because your best fencer has a better chance to surprise their best fencer in a 5 touch bout than in a 15 touch bout. And it's easier to score 5 doubles than to score 10 doubles.

In scenario #2, the assumption can be that all of the fencers on your team are vastly superior to the fencers on the other team. In that case, it doesn't matter if you want the score to be high or low. Although it will probably be better to have a high score to finish the last bout easily and quickly. I have seen team matches like this where the score was as low as 45-7, and that was epee.

Another possibililty in scenario #2 could be that the score is largely in favor of your team because a couple of bouts were complete blowouts for the other team and in the other bouts, the other team played passivity. This is dangerous to do for you, because it means that you are open to a come back in the last bout if their last fencer is very good. So it might not be wise to accept passivity at this point, and you might have a better option to attack, even though you're leading, to make sure that you keep the score high.

That's it for strategies on when to keep the score high and when to keep it low.

Now, what to do when you are down?

Let's say that you start your team match, and it's their best fencer against your second best. Unfortunately, for some reason, their best fencer creams your second best fencer, 5-0.
The most important thing at this point is not to panic. Only 1 bout was fenced, and 5 touches isn't that much in a 45 touch match. A lot of things can happen still.

I have seen (and have done as well) fencers who start a bout when they are down in the match, and think "I'm the best fencer on this team, this is their weakest, I should catch up the deficit and beat this guy straight so that my team is back in the race."

Well, it might not be the best strategy. Perhaps their weakest fencer is actually a great defender, and will score 5 doubles, and nothing will have changed in the bout. That's actually not a bad scenario, you didn't lose any points. But it can turn worse, and the score can be 10-0 by the end of your bout. So don't try to be a hero. You may be the best fencer on the team, if you lose all your bouts, you won't have given any advantage to your team.

If you think about a team match, there are 9 bouts in it. If your first fencer loses 5-0, and in all the matches that follow, each of you wins 1-0, you will win the match by 3 touches. So try and make up the deficit little by little. Each bout lasts 3 minutes, that's about enough time to score 3 well constructed, well thought out touches. If you can do more, do it, but don't start the bout with too high an objective in mind.

That's about it. If I think of more, I'll post it later

[VELISARIOS]

I wish you to win. Now about your question...no the first player maybe the strongest. Your coach will see your oponents and he (or she) deside who of your team will play first.
Be strong!!!!

[Victor]

In epee ... ((a lot of strategic stuff))

I don't want to sound dismissive of your insights (truly). But isn't it simply a matter of each team member fencing his best, regardless? Trying to micro-manage the score would seem to be a major distraction.

[Elemental]

Thanks for all the advice, I'll be sure to try and remember it all.

My friend and I asked everyone at our Salle yesterday but no one was able to sign up for the event with us. Luckily NW Fencing Center (who's putting on the even) said that if you don't have a team at the time of registration they will put teams together at the event.

So good news: we still get to fence

Bad news: we will be mixed with another school. So we will either have someone we don't know on our team, or we will be the odd new person on teams from that school. Well at least I'll get to make new friends.

[glowstix]

vecco,

that was comprehensive!! thats just one reason i like epee the best. team bouts in the other two weapons never play out like that.

[Army Fencer]

Veeco, excellent analysis! Strategy really does matter for team events and you presented the important points clearly and concisely.

One thing I think we're forgetting about, though, is that for many, many school events (high school and college), the format isn't 45 touches, it's 9 discrete bouts. I think we need more information to give him good advice.