NAC B Review

[CvilleFencer]

M.27 in the latest USFA edition states that the mesh of the mask MUST NOT EXTEND BELOW THE CHIN. Note that it does not say that it may come under the chin, hold the chin in place or any other such thing, it just say's it may not extend below the chin, which means that the mesh may not slip under the chin to hold the mask in place, because if it does it is obviously below the chin! It goes on to say that the mesh must be insulated INTERNALLY and externally by a plastic material resistant to impact. Not sure how you get the plastic inside the steel wire, but I bet it would not pass a puch test if it did! One of my favorite rules, right up there with where it does not say specifically WHICH hand you must extend to get priority in a ROW weapon!

[peet]

M.27 in the latest USFA edition states that the mesh of the mask MUST NOT EXTEND BELOW THE CHIN. Note that it does not say that it may come under the chin, hold the chin in place or any other such thing, it just say's it may not extend below the chin, which means that the mesh may not slip under the chin to hold the mask in place, because if it does it is obviously below the chin!

Ah, i see. I think i'd interpret m.27 differently from you. I'm thinking it's meant to prevent using an extra-long mask to cover valid target. (that'd be why this rule is in the foil section of the rulebook?)

It goes on to say that the mesh must be insulated INTERNALLY and externally by a plastic material resistant to impact. Not sure how you get the plastic inside the steel wire, but I bet it would not pass a puch test if it did!

I think they mean inside the mesh/mask, not inside the wire itself.

ok, enough hair-splitting for today?

cheers!

[CvilleFencer]

Oh, I know full well how it is SUPPOSED to be interpreted, along with all the other vague rules in the book. That is why we hire and train skilled and competent Armorers and judges to interpret the intent of the rules and to give the correct answer for the situation. I just think some of them are funny if you read them at face value without any "reasonable knowledge of the art" as it were. It is no wonder so many people who just "glance through" the rulebook have so many misunderstangings about the way things actaully work (not that I am looking to put George K out of a job or anything! I still have a long way to go towards a complete owning of the rules and how they should be called for all the weaons).

[oiuyt]

It's funny, but the USFA rules also specify that the mask bib must be rated to 1600N and the uniform must be rated at 800N. So, you could also enforce those rules (check the m.xx rules in the rule book) and force everyone to purchase FIE equipment to fence at any USFA event (national or divisional).

I've searched the USFA site and have yet to find separate equipment rules for national or local events...

Craig

Page 22 of the current (Nov. 2004) rulebook:

USFA Note:
In all three weapons, each fencer's last name must be printed legibly by hand or machine in dark blue capital letters not more than 10 cm high: either (1) on the back of the uniform or lame between the shoulders; (2) on the front or side of the thigh of the "rear" leg; or (3) on a pieve of fabric or lame material that is firmly sewn to the uniform in such a way that it will not detach during fencing or catch the opponent's point. Fabric attached to the uniform must be the same color as the part of the uniform to which it is attached. Conductive materials must be attached in such a way as to not alter the conductivity of the metallic vest or jacket. NAMES PRINTED ON TAPE ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE.

The use of an FIE homolgated uniform is not required for USFA competitions. However:
The protective plastron must:
1. have at least two layers;
2. include a sleeve down to the elbow without opening or seam in the region of the armpit; and
3. ensure the best possible protection. It may be fixed to the jacket without being entirely sewn in
4. it does not need to be constructed of 800 Newton material.

Interestingly this note adjusting the rules to US standards does NOT have a minimum size for the lettering. I merely looked up the note for the portion about FIE homolgation, but the rest of it applies well to the current discussion.... :)

-B :)

[Craig]

Page 22 of the current (Nov. 2004) rulebook:


Interestingly this note adjusting the rules to US standards does NOT have a minimum size for the lettering. I merely looked up the note for the portion about FIE homolgation, but the rest of it applies well to the current discussion....

-B

Thanks. Missed that one in my search.

[oso97]

Page 22 of the current (Nov. 2004) rulebook:


Interestingly this note adjusting the rules to US standards does NOT have a minimum size for the lettering. I merely looked up the note for the portion about FIE homolgation, but the rest of it applies well to the current discussion....

-B

So where'd they get the 8cm minimum from then?

[oiuyt]

So where'd they get the 8cm minimum from then?

Oh, that's in there, 60ish pages later. In the same place that requires the nationalilty to be listed. The USFA note is an adjustment of the FIE rules. The FIE portion includes a minimum, but the USFA note does note. The FIE name and nationality requirement is listed in two different portions of the rulebook, the USFA note, which addresses the parts of both of the FIE requirements appears in only one location.

I believe the USFA note, in some former versions of the rulebook specified that the name requirement applied to national competitions. This is no longer specified, which means that, technically, all locals should now require names (assuming there aren't other exceptions listed elsewhere in the rulebook (doubtful) or the ops manual (quite possible, I haven't checked recently). The USFA rulebook specifies that the ops manual does have some variations that apply for USFA competitions.

-B :)

[peet]

Oh, I know full well how it is SUPPOSED to be interpreted, along with all the other vague rules in the book. That is why we hire and train skilled and competent Armorers and judges to interpret the intent of the rules and to give the correct answer for the situation. I just think some of them are funny if you read them at face value without any "reasonable knowledge of the art" as it were.

Ahh, i think see what you meant. I agree entirely....

cheers!

-p

[mrbiggs]

Sometime in the mid-90s when letterings were required several countries got a bit too creative about how the names can be put on the back. Some other -- less creative -- countries protested and the FIE decided to standardize the lettering requirement: 8-10cm tall, all caps, block lettering (no italicized, no groovy fonts), navy blue (with a possible exception when the lame is blue in color, then it should be black).

Yeah, I understand why the rule is there, but I don't see why it should be enforced under most cirumstances. As I said, if the ref can't read it, that's one thing, but I think that if you need a ruler to see if they're the right size, then they're close enough.

[peet]

Yeah, I understand why the rule is there, but I don't see why it should be enforced under most cirumstances. As I said, if the ref can't read it, that's one thing, but I think that if you need a ruler to see if they're the right size, then they're close enough.

I'm not generally looking to be a rules nazi over every little point, but just FYI: It is often stated by the FOC people that even if it seems excessive to strictly enforce a particular rule at a particular NAC, many of these events lead towards international competition, where the FIE refs enforce the rules very strictly. How much trouble would our fencers be in if the first time they ever heard of a certain rule, or saw it enforced, was when they got penalized for it at a World Cup? What if that red card cost them the bout?

Just one more way to look at it....

-p

[sreckiki]

I'm not generally looking to be a rules nazi over every little point, but just FYI: It is often stated by the FOC people that even if it seems excessive to strictly enforce a particular rule at a particular NAC, many of these events lead towards international competition, where the FIE refs enforce the rules very strictly. How much trouble would our fencers be in if the first time they ever heard of a certain rule, or saw it enforced, was when they got penalized for it at a World Cup? What if that red card cost them the bout?

Just one more way to look at it....

-p

Another way to look at it. Which percentage of fencer fencing at a NAC will go to a World Cup? Certainly less than 10%... so why bother everybody with a few "stupid" rules like this one?

In my opinion, all of this is taken too seriously. It's just fencing so have fun!

[afc fencer]

I'm not generally looking to be a rules nazi over every little point, but just FYI: It is often stated by the FOC people that even if it seems excessive to strictly enforce a particular rule at a particular NAC, many of these events lead towards international competition, where the FIE refs enforce the rules very strictly. How much trouble would our fencers be in if the first time they ever heard of a certain rule, or saw it enforced, was when they got penalized for it at a World Cup? What if that red card cost them the bout?

Just one more way to look at it....

-p

World cups are much more laid back with the rules than nacs.

[dekko]

Major thumbs down for the idtiot with the camera who decided Ivan Lee's bleeding head would make for good pictures. At least the people with video cameras turned them off when it happened. Can't wait to see those for sale. Guess he works for Jerry Springer on the side.

I was one of the folks with a video camera and did turn it off after I saw the severity of the bleeding. Before the question gets asked, I have no intention of making it available on any website so everyone can point and stare. Not sure about Jerry Springer but I also though it was odd that he came and took pics of the bleeding. Guess that's why I am not a photog.

[kalivor]

In CA it is against the law to mary your horse [snip] I think CA wins the stupid rules contest!

So ... you're upset that people can't marry their horses in CA? Or do you want to marry your horse?

With all the new "marriage is between a man and a woman" amendments, it's probably increasingly rare to find a state that WILL allow person-horse marriages, even if the horse belongs to someone else ...

[JEC]

I was at the NAC with my camera, but only taped Men's Epee. I think the incident described above is poor taste.

[edew]

At the 2003 World Championships, the Men's Saber team gold medal match between Russia and Hungary was stopped temporarily when Charikov was whacked across the head by Fodor Kende. He had a nice .5cm hole popped in his bald head and it bled quite profusely.

The eurosport guy came right up and filmed the whole cleaning and patching up procedure. Our own Peter Harmer was the one doing the cleaning, too. But more than one camera person was there.

[veeco]

At the Olympics, when Touya had a blade pierce his hand, he was also filmed by more than one camera. And I think everyone was "happy" to be able to see it, even though it was poor taste.

I guess it's difficult to strike a good balance between voyeurism and information...

[CvilleFencer]

If it bleeds it leads...

[dekko]

At the 2003 World Championships, the Men's Saber team gold medal match between Russia and Hungary was stopped temporarily when Charikov was whacked across the head by Fodor Kende. He had a nice .5cm hole popped in his bald head and it bled quite profusely.

The eurosport guy came right up and filmed the whole cleaning and patching up procedure. Our own Peter Harmer was the one doing the cleaning, too. But more than one camera person was there.

Considering where you live and what happens there that ends up on videotape I guess I shouldn't be surprised by your answer/view.

If you wish to film it to show how to tend to a wound like that then fine, what to do that is right/wrong learn from it etc.... But to film it for any other reason it in poor taste and the only reason the guy took pics of it was to hope to sell them to someone and make a buck, that is poor taste. Had Pete asked me to keep filming to give him a copy to show other potential onsite parameds how it's done then fine I would have and kept a copy for myself. But to take pictures just becuase I might be able to sell it sometime, that is wrong and I hope he sells none of those pics.

[edew]

I don't know how my living area had anything to do with either Ivan Lee's or Sergei Charikov's incidents. Charikov's incident occurred in Havana, not San Francisco, and was filmed by the eurosport crew, not the LA traffic helicopter crew.

Lee's incident happened in Richmond VA, and was photographed or filmed by some local crew.

All I did was related what happened in Havana, not to opine whether doing so was ethical or permissible or even in good or bad taste.