ratings!

[Torg]

there something that's been bugging me for a while. i'm a decent fencer, and i can hold my own against many people in the Minnesota division, many of whom are rated. at a tournament a few weeks ago, i beat a C in DEs. just this morning i beat an A and a B in pools. yet i'm still unrated. seems to me it's a "right place, right time" sort of deal. thoughts?

[SouthPaw]

compete more, in bigger competitions. youll get it eventually.

on a similar note, ive been a C for way too long now, I think I've gotten my C04 like 4 times already, and every single time I was at most 1 bout, and twice 1 TOUCH away from getting my B. Rawr.

[garyhayenga]

A lot of it is being in the right place at the right time. But consistency is a big part of it two. According to your profile you've only been fencing a year and you might be very talented or very good at a couple of different things but still have big holes in your game in other areas that some weaker fencers exploit by doing the only things they know how to do while some higher rated fencers are assuming that you have skills and reactions that you don't.

This is just guesswork of course, since I don't actually know anything about you personally, or the tournaments you've done well in. 2nd in a tournament multiple A's and B's but only 14 people. 10th in an A tournament where the ratings only went down to 9th place.

I think the important thing is not only who did you beat but how and why did you beat them and, perhaps even more important, how and why did you lose to the weaker fencers that you lost to?

Also while consistency is probably the big factor here you have to realize that consistency in Epee isn't the same as consistent as the other weapons. People are far more vulnerable to a weaker opponent with a hot point for a bout, or even a day, especially in a 5 touch pool bout. In a foil or sabre tournament pool the top seed in the pool might lose to the second seed, but then the second seed will stay undefeated, whereas in an epee tournament the top seed might lose to the next to bottom seed who will only win one other bout. One year at the Remenyik while I was still only a C in epee we had 88 fencers with a dozen A and B ratings and of 14 first round pools (so there could have been 14 undefeated fencers) I was the only one undefeated. I ended up 5th that year if I recall correctly. So no rating change then.

gary hayenga

[glowstix]

i'd agree with whats been said already. i know the feeling of thinking that you're better than your rating. this year i re-earned my E04 like 3 times in a row, beat numerous C fencers in DE's not just pools and nothing to show for it. when i got my first chance to get a D, the top seed lost ahead of me so he finished 6th and i finished 7th. second time i finally got it and was 2 touches away from a C.

a lot of it has to do with the pools. you have to do well in the pools and like you i fence epee and in that weapon, anything can happen. there are too many lucky touches. it will happen some day. since its epee, you never know, you might just luck out and wind up with a C or B right off. i've seen it happen.

[Irensaga]

I feel your pain. My coach was convinced that I was good enough for D ranking, and capable of C ranking with a little more practice. As yet, I am still unrated.

In my case, it was combination of a few things (I think):

1. Not enough big tournaments that hand out several rankings.

2. I tend to start slow in tournaments. I always tended to do poorly in 5 touche seeding pools. As a result, I'd always get paired up with an A ranked fencer in direct elimination who'd slaughter me in spite of some of my best competitive performances ever.

3. I got married, went to law school and didn't fence for about 2 years and I only just picked it up again about 9 months ago.

4. There's not much USFA action in my current place of residence.

But the main reason is my own darn fault. Poor performance in pools. You really gotta take those things seriously or you'll end up with horrendous placement in direct elimination.

[Irensaga]

Also, I wouldn't necessarily take being able to defeat an A fencer in pools too seriously.

I'm not trying to knock you, the fact you were able to do it definately shows a good threshold of skill. But the fact is, it's not that uncommon for a midlevel fencer to sometimes surprise an A ranked fencer in a 5 touche bout.

I remember once schooling a guy in pools 5-2 and he was like number 15 in the nation or something. But it doesn't mean I was a better fencer. The truth is, I surprised him. But in a 15 touche bout, he would have had time to adjust and would have worked me over (as he had countless times before).

But I think this just goes to show how important pools are in a tournament. There's a real element of chance in 5 touche bouts that can really make your career, if you use it right.

[telkanuru]

Pools are a completely different animal. You don't normally have time to adapt to some eccentricity in your opponent's style in a 5 point bout. In any case, I went without my rating for ~3 years, missing it by 1-4 points on 5 occasions. It's kind of fun playing spoiler, anyway

[davtsung]

There have been many times where I lose to someone in pools, but defeat them with a decent margin in DE's. Don;t worry about the ratings, they will come if you keep improving!

[ThaProfessor12]

i was lucky enough to earn my B the first chance I had available , but it couldve easily went the other way , cause like many of your guys' stories , the score 15-14

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by southernsword

You will probably be fencing at "A" level on the moment you earn a "C". Likewise you will fence on "A" level when you upgrade to a "B" and eventually you will continue to have "on the mark" performances such that circumstance and performance match the rating you earn.

Assuming that there is such a quantifiable thing as 'fencing at an "A" level', beyond I earned my "A" today, so I must have been fencing at an "A" level...

This is not true, it can be but not always.

I earned my 'C' at an open where the top 4 were A's and the bottom 4 (myself included) weren't.

I know a fencer who won a Div 3 national event earning her 'C'. She was not, and has never fenced at an 'A' level.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Torg

there something that's been bugging me for a while. i'm a decent fencer, and i can hold my own against many people in the Minnesota division, many of whom are rated. at a tournament a few weeks ago, i beat a C in DEs. just this morning i beat an A and a B in pools. yet i'm still unrated. seems to me it's a "right place, right time" sort of deal. thoughts?

I remember as an up-and-coming fencer I beat a national team member in the pools. Word traveld fast at the event, an NAC, that I performed a major upset.

I ended up in the round of 64, earning no points, and he took top 4. Beating someone in pools doesn't mean much.

Keep working, keep practicing, keep competing. The rating will come.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

A fencer who has his eye on the prize and is serious is a dangerous machine.

[mrbiggs]

Earning a rating is 80% luck. Of course, the skill is necessary, but without the luck, a rating just won't get earned.

I don't know how things are where you live, but non-Open tournaments (E & Under, Unranked, D and under, whatever), often draw just enough fencers to create a ranking. (A 15 person unranked is a common example.) I do realize, though, that limited events such as those, even if they do exist, do not draw enough people for rankings in some places.

[davtsung]

Originally Posted by southernsword

Agreed Hadouken?
By the way what does your member ID mean?

You've never played StreetFighter?

[davtsung]

Earning a 'C' does not mean one is fencing at an 'A' level, that's why they are ratings; this is not to say that one is not capable of A-level moments as a C-fencer, just that such moments are fewer and farther between to demonstrate any consistency.

The biggest leap I feel in fencers is from the C to B. I rarely meet fencer who keep re-earning their B, but I often meet fencers who keep re-earning their C, D and E's. While it is true that there are certainly intangibles which affect our tournament-to-tournament performances, an A level fencer should reflect a consistency that enables them to consistently defeat most C-rated fencer.

[mrbiggs]

Now that I ponder it, earning a "C" doesn't necessarily mean fencing at an A level. It can, but it doesn't always. Sometimes it can mean fencing at a C level. Sometimes it can mean luck and fencing at an E level. I've seen some pretty bad C's and B's out there....ESPECIALLY in épée.

[davtsung]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Now that I ponder it, earning a "C" doesn't necessarily mean fencing at an A level. It can, but it doesn't always. Sometimes it can mean fencing at a C level. Sometimes it can mean luck and fencing at an E level. I've seen some pretty bad C's and B's out there....ESPECIALLY in épée.

Is it my imagination and utter ignorance (probably the latter) but are epee ratings easier to come by? I've heard arguments to support and refute this assertion, but as a foilist I've never really given a hoot. But I would still like an answer....

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by davtsung

Is it my imagination and utter ignorance (probably the latter) but are epee ratings easier to come by? I've heard arguments to support and refute this assertion, but as a foilist I've never really given a hoot. But I would still like an answer....

It's not necessarily easier, it's just that in épée, luck and fencing styles are more important than they are in the other two weapons. In foil, for instance, an E who is good at counterattacking might beat an out-of-control C. In épée, similar events are much more common, and cover a much wider skill range. Also, you can miss 3 touches in a row in épée on extremely bad luck. Unlike in foil, there's no RoW or off-targets to protect you--if you miss in épée, you probably lost the touch.

[davtsung]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

It's not necessarily easier, it's just that in épée, luck and fencing styles are more important than they are in the other two weapons. In foil, for instance, an E who is good at counterattacking might beat an out-of-control C. In épée, similar events are much more common, and cover a much wider skill range. Also, you can miss 3 touches in a row in épée on extremely bad luck. Unlike in foil, there's no RoW or off-targets to protect you--if you miss in épée, you probably lost the touch.

So is it easier, or just more random?

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by davtsung

So is it easier, or just more random?

Random, for the most part. The percentages of USFA members fencing each weapon in each ranking are similar, so it'd be hard to support a statement that the epee rankings are easier to get. But with randomness comes easiness, because with the randomness, part of your ranking is how many tournaments you went to until you got lucky. 90% of epeeists actually earned their ranking, but the lucky ones are out there.