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Old 12-10-2004, 04:08 PM   #1
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Foil vs Epee Masks

Has anyone seen any armorers or referees deny the use of "Foil/Epee" Mask in the recent years? I haven't seen any officials make the distinction for a very long time, at least at a national level. Just wondering if anyone's seen a recent case where an armorer or a referee try to enforce the "this is an Epee mask, not Foil mask" bit. Specifically noting the size of the bib.
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Old 12-10-2004, 06:36 PM   #2
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Crikey - I didn't know there was a difference, and i've been fencing for thirteen years?!

P.S. I think that anyone who tries to distinguish between the two is just being pedantic, and deserves to be slapped...
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Old 12-10-2004, 06:48 PM   #3
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Officially there is supposed to be a difference. Foil masks are not supposed to have much of a bib so that they dont cover target area. However for safety and financial reasons this rule was always ignored by manafacturers and everyone else.
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Old 12-11-2004, 08:54 AM   #4
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rules regardin bibs

At one time the maximum size for a foil mask bib was less than the minimum size for a epee bib, however that rule was changed several years ago. Now there is only one standard for bib size (on the order of 12 cm long).

BTW most old foil masks do not meet this standard - one more reason not to use old masks.
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Old 12-13-2004, 09:57 AM   #5
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Jay stop making dumb threads
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Old 12-14-2004, 04:51 PM   #6
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Only rules I have been able to find in the recent edition of the rule book are as follows:

m.25, m.30, m.32, A-4.3

Material Rules
Chapter 2. Equipment and Clothing
1. General Conditions
m.25 7. The bib of the mask must be made with cloth resistant to 1600 Newtons. The mask must include a safety strap at the rear.

3. Rules Specific to Epee
m.30 The mask must be so shaped that the bib reaches below the prominences of the collar bones (clavicles).

4. Rules specific to Sabre
m.32 <rules regarding conductivity>

Appendix to the Material Rules
Equipment
4.3 The bib must be formed from several layers of cloth firmly fixed to each other, of which at least on the inside must be made of Kevlar fibre or a similar substance; in any case the cloth so formed must ensure a high degree of resistance to penetration equal or greater than 1600NW, as provided for in specification no. (technical quality of cloth for fencing uniforms); it must also hinder the forming of stiff creases or the rolling up of the bib itself.

As I recall from earlier editions, distinction between a Foil mask and an Epee mask came from how far down the bib covers. In Foil, the bib could not extend beyond the clavicles (as in, it protects the neck but not part of the chest) while Epee mask had to provide the protection beyond the clavicles. However, I cannot find the relevant rule in the current edition of the rule book which specifies the maximum length of the bib in a Foil mask. Only the minimum length of the bib in an Epee mask is specified in the current edition, and only by using the fencer's body feature as a reference rather than a numerical measurement.

In a recent Regional Youth Circuit event I officiated in, there was a Y-12 Foil fencer wearing a mask with exceptionally large bib coverage area. Combined with her "Epee-like" style of fencing which is comprised predominantly of counterattacks and displacements, taking a full advantage of lack of point control in her age-group competition, and a great sense of distance and timing most of her points were counterattacks with single lights. And lots of off-target lights from her attacking opponents who couldn't adjust.

The issue came up regarding her "unusual style" (accused of substituting target area by ducking) and what appeared to be a fresh-new mask that is sized rather large for the young fencer with an "exceptionally" large bib coverage area. The effect was along the line of seeing a child wearing a large Leon Paul X-Change mask, with the bib flaring out. That description might perhaps be an exaggeration, and no measurements were taken. But visually, it seemed to have that effect. Could this fencer have been responsible for deliberating taking advantage of the loop hole in the current rules or the conventional procedures of the refereeing?

Many years ago (pre-FIE stamp days) at a Sectional level event where I served as an apprentice director, a rather large Epee fencer walked up to the strip with a mask that didn't conform to the regulations, specifically the bib size and lack of (correct) inspection mark. He was wearing what appeared to be a first line of Santelli masks that came with sewen-in bib, and it most certainly did not provide the bottom-line protection per rules an Epee mask was required to. I gave him a warning for the non-conforming equipment, and upon his complaint at the ruling, the mask was subjected to the examination of the Bout Committee and the Armorer. The appeal failed, and furthermore the Armorer discovered that the mesh failed the punch-test as well as the visual inspection. It turned out that the fencer had never submitted his equipment for Weapons Check prior to the event, and the inspection marks on the mask and body cords were from prior season's. He figured, it was fine the year before and hasn't had a problem with it since so why should he bother. The mask was crushed on the spot. He then received a penalty for absence of inspection mark as well as delaying the bout and unjustifie appeal. He received further panalties for dealying the bout because it took him forever to obtain another mask.

I have also noticed lately that some fencers come to the strip with low-budget masks (non-FIE) that have bibs that constantly roll up, negating the protection for the neck. I have yet to give a warning or penalty related to that particular type of mask, but I do find myself from time to time reminding the fencers to adjust their bib before I give the command to fence. This runs along the line of instructing the fencers to flatten the fold-over on the front-zip lames, and making sure girls keep their hair from falling on their lame.

Last edited by Mauler; 12-14-2004 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 12-15-2004, 08:33 AM   #7
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Read further in the appendix

4 . 3 . B i b s
The bib must be formed from several layers of cloth firmly fixed to each other, of which at least one on the inside must be made of Kevlar fibre
or a similar substance; in any case the cloth so formed must ensure a high degree of resistance to penetration equal or greater than 1600NW, as
provided for in specification no. (technical quality of cloth for fencing uniforms); it must also hinder the forming of stiff creases or the
rolling up of the bib itself.
The bib must be fixed to the exterior of the grille starting from the reinforcement band onwards and extending as protection for the neck for a total height of the order of 10–12 cm.
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Old 12-15-2004, 10:56 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJCFU#2
Read further in the appendix

4 . 3 . B i b s
The bib must be fixed to the exterior of the grille starting from the reinforcement band onwards and extending as protection for the neck for a total height of the order of 10–12 cm.
Ah-ha! So that's what it meant. I was trying to visualize the wording of that sentence. It sounded like a description of the protection area for the side of the neck, for some reason. Thank you.
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