The values of fencing vs kendo

[drippingwet]

I was thinking/wondering what are differences in the values of FIE fencing and Kendo? Is fencing actually classed as a martial art, or just a sport? Does kendo have a greater spiritual element while fencing is just a hobby that grows larger in your life as you get more successful? I suppose the big question is, what do they offer and where do they differ?

P.S. How related is kendo to the Samurai?

[Manethrin]

This is all dependent on how you veiw fencing. Some veiw fencing as a quest to score touches, without the thought process. I veiw fencing as the touch, but with the significant though process to spot the opponents weaknesses, and strengths and use them to my advantage. Fencing is classed as an martial art, and a sport. As is Kendo. When referring to Fencing as a martial art, it is in the Eurpean sense of the word. As to the advantages of one over the other I have little expeirence.

[nahouw]

I was thinking/wondering what are differences in the values of FIE fencing and Kendo? Is fencing actually classed as a martial art, or just a sport? Does kendo have a greater spiritual element while fencing is just a hobby that grows larger in your life as you get more successful? I suppose the big question is, what do they offer and where do they differ?

P.S. How related is kendo to the Samurai?

Fencing is considered more of a sport than a martial art. Kendo is the sport part of the martial art of the family that includes Aiki-ken and Aikido, which would be considered the martial arts.

It all comes down to want you want to get out of it. If you want something more spiritually based, choose Aikido or Aiki-ken or even Kendo. If you want competition, choose fencing.

If you are choosing between fencing and Kendo, Kendo is most similar to sabre -- except that the only touches recognized in Kendo are wrist, cheek and belly.

How Kendo relates to the Samurai: Kendo (bamboo) is the sport version of the martial art in the family; next is Aiki-ken (wooden bokken), next Aikido (only hands), and last is Iaido (live sword) -- Iaido is the truest form to what the samurai's practiced -- this is not something that you compete in at all -- it is only for individual meditative practice. And you can't be let into an Iaido class until you have reached a certain rank in Aikido.

[bjacobs]

"Is fencing classed as a martial art or just a sport"

Fencing is not "just" a sport; it's a sport, and in fact a combat sport, with all the qualities, subtleties, benefits and downsides associated with sports. Your phrasing seems to start from the assumption that there's some inherently spiritual or better about martial arts than sports, when that's simply not the case. The quality of training and rate of development often suffers in martial arts as compared to sports, as well as character development. Compare the technical ability, determination, work ethic, team spirit, concentration, and useful knowledge (not to mention actual fighting ability) of the average wrestler to the typical karate kid, and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

[Schiavona]

How Kendo relates to the Samurai: Kendo (bamboo) is the sport version of the martial art in the family; next is Aiki-ken (wooden bokken), next Aikido (only hands), and last is Iaido (live sword) -- Iaido is the truest form to what the samurai's practiced -- this is not something that you compete in at all -- it is only for individual meditative practice. And you can't be let into an Iaido class until you have reached a certain rank in Aikido.

This is interesting, in the Alkido dojo I studied in(Aikido North, a decendant of Aikido West) we did empty hand, staff and sword forms not having to have a certain rank. I've also known people to study Iaido without ever having studied any other martial art, as Iaido and Aikido are different arts, though Iaido is very much the elder.

Martial arts joke;
How many martial arts masters does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Eight. One to screw in the bulb and seven to watch and say, "In my school we do things somewhat differently.".

[Inquartata]

I know at least one Iai dojo which requires no Aikido experience whatsoever. It's possible that some schools make proficiency in aikido a pre-requisite, but I don't know of any offhand.

Iai, to oversimplify, is the art of the "fast draw"; it is a solo or kata art, using only an imaginary opponent. The combat equivalent of Kendo is Kenjutsu, just as the combat form of aikido is aikijutsu and that of iaido, iaiajutsu.

The bokken is also used in Kendo ( for kata and practice, not sparring ) and aikido.

Kendo strikes are: left and right sides of the men ( mask ) as well as the forehead and the throat ( with a thrust ), left and rights sides of the do
( torso armour ), and the kote ( hand/forearm protection ).

[DanielSun]

Cool Thread!

It's difficult to classify fencing as a sport or martial art. It does have many internal aspects, if you wish to perceive them that way. One can learn self-control, discipline, humility, and awareness in both fencing and kendo. Both can be interperated as a sport or art, depending on the way you wish to see it.
On a side note, have any of you found supplimenting fencing with another martial art, especially something like tai chi or qi gong effective?

[SwordSoul]

sorry, that was immature and uncalled for, but i had to say it before someone else did

cool thread so far--i dig kendo

[dunastor]

Conversation between a kendoka and an epee fencer:

K: "What the hell are you doing!?"
E: "What do you mean I can't hit him there!?"

Conversation between a kendoka and a foil fencer:

K: "You call that a sword?"
F: "You call that a sword?"

Conversation between a kendoka and a sabreur:

K: "I wear a cool uniform."
S: "Yeah, me too."
K: "I hit people in the head and love it."
S: "Yeah, me too."
K: "I sneer disdainfully at the foil fencers."
S: "Yeah, me too."
K: "I like to scream my head off when I fight."
S: "Will you marry me?"

[davtsung]

Kendo is the persistent pursual of truth and beauty via the sword. It is truly an attempt at controlling and knowing oneself. There is more infusion of the art/sport as an exetnsion of daily life in that the lessons learned are meant to manifest in our everyday life. In kendo, there are no 'left-handers', everyone does it right-handed so as to eliminate any discussion of advantages. In kendo, I've never seen anyone complain or yell at the director when a point doesn't go their way even if we know for a fact that the call was bad. Kendo is really not just a sport, or at least it's not meant to be.

[Grey]

Unfortunately I think Kendo compared to Fencing, is further removed from combat. From what I could see in their videos and local Kendo Association, it is more of a ritual form of combat. As much as Fencing should not be related to duelling, it still retains some aspects of it. In my opinion, Kendo is more "sport" compared to Fencing.

However, every other aspects of Kendo apart from combat seems very much more favourable than Fencing, with emphasis on technique, virtue etc.

[jBirch]

Hey all,

Just to set the record straight on a couple of things.

Iaido (the art of drawing, cutting and replacing the sword) is practiced both individually and in pairs. It is part of the ZKNR (All Japan Kendo Association) and encouraged at all levels of kendo. If you want to really learn distance and timing, try executing cuts to the head with real swords and real heads.

The proper progression of Samurai weapons training was first Kyudo (bow) then Yari (Spear) then Katana (long sword) then Wakizashi (short sword) then tanto (knife) THEN taijitsu (open hand). Aikido came from Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jutsu which was a school of JiuJutsu. O-Sensai thought that the study of the sword (and Jo and Tanto) was illustrative for how to move in Aikido and how to apply the wrist lock techinques correctly. Before O-Sensai taught any of his deishi they were high level Kendoka or JiuJutsoka, so he thought that the sword was a prerequisite for Aikido, not the other way round.

Kendo strikes are totally different from sabre cuts and the game is totally different from Olympic fencing. A cut must be scored with intent as well as target. So a sabre cut that just clips the lame and causes the light to go off would be judged a non-event in Kendo. Saying that sabre is akin to kendo is like saying a jeep is like a tank because they both go offroad. The distance is different, the timing different and similar (a beat is a beat is a beat) and the study just as focused on winning as we are.

Spirituality is not something you're likely to find in kendo. Which is one of the reasons why Iai was introduced to the program. Iai IS spiritual. If you like swords and are interested in really learning about them, Iai is a great place to start. Kim Taylor at the University of Guelph in Ontario, Canada is an awesome resource. He puts on swordsmithing, sword appraising and Iaido seminars during the summer that are absolutely phenomenal. I HIGHLY recommend going if you're interested.

The right-handedness of Kendo is in no way due to making everyone equal and rather slightly more prosaic: the kimono and gi do up left over right. If you draw right side across your body, the tsuba gets caught in the folds on the way by and you get killed. As well since, like Britain, everyone walks past each other on the left side, a sword worn on the right hip, would be banging into people you pass. Samurai got cranky quickly so you'd be constantly fighting duels as you walked down the street. Further, if you horse back ride, try mounting from the left side of the horse wearing a sword on your right hip. Once you get kicked and/or land on your butt, think about a simple solution to the problem of your sword on your right hip. Finally, it's nearly impossible to write Japanese left handed. If you write like an idiot, people will think you are an idiot and not teach you anything.

There is another thread in the water cooler about just this topic. I'll dig it up if I can.

Hope this helps.

[jBirch]

Here are the promised links:

http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthr...ighlight=Kendo

And this one:

http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthr...ighlight=Kendo

[bjacobs]

Davtsung, I find it difficult to believe that there's anything inherently more spiritual to training and competing in kendo than basketball. In what way isn't it or shouldn't it be a sport? And what sort of truth or beauty do you expect to find with a wooden swordlike object that you can't find with a tennis racquet?

But don't misunderstand me; I have no doubt it's possible to find enormous benefit from the practice of kendo. I think that athletics as a whole is an excellent vehicle for self improvement.

[SenorEste]

An article was recently published in a local magazine/journal here on the chapel hill campus- while not particularly in-depth, it gives an interesting look at both fencing and kendo on the UNC campus and as sports as a whole, from an objective viewpoint.

Here's the link.

I stopped by to watch a kendo tournament here on campus once, and as a fencer I found it quite a treat- it was interesting to watch, and the kendoka who werent doing anything gladly explained things to me, and awnsered questions.

Also, you think fencing gear is expensive? Check out a top of the line full kendo suit. wow.

[Jay83]

I practice both Fencing and Iaido. My Iaido club is also looking to get into Kendo stuff, but we don't have the gear for it.

My first Iaido Sensei who trained in Japan, told us that once something becomes a sport, it is no longer a Martial Art. This includes Kendo and Fencing. I can't remember exactly what he said, but I think a martial art has more to do with spiritual training.

Iaido is very interesting and I would recommend it to everyone.

[bjacobs]

Respectfully, I disagree strongly with your Iaido teacher. Spiritual training and martial arts have no natural connection. For spirituality, go to church or temple or dance naked in the woods. For philosophy, check out your library or go to class. The thing that makes a martial art different from some other kind of art or craft or practice is that it's martial, about fighting.

Boxing is a sport. Think it's not a martial art? Try to punch a boxer in the face and see what happens. Try tackling a wrestler some time.

[Epee Scherma]

Although their uniforms are really really awesome, I hear they can reek like heck after a while. Is it true that they don't wash their uniforms as much?

[davtsung]

Davtsung, I find it difficult to believe that there's anything inherently more spiritual to training and competing in kendo than basketball. In what way isn't it or shouldn't it be a sport? And what sort of truth or beauty do you expect to find with a wooden swordlike object that you can't find with a tennis racquet?

But don't misunderstand me; I have no doubt it's possible to find enormous benefit from the practice of kendo. I think that athletics as a whole is an excellent vehicle for self improvement.

I would first encourage you to try kendo before making the inelegant comparison between kendo and basketball. While no doubt all sports are beautiful and achieve elements of what can be considered a philosophical truth, the practice of tennis does not hail from a philosophy of conduct, namely in the case of kendo, bushido. What you may find difficult in believing is best answered with you actually trying it before any crass misunderstanding. Boston kyokai would be a good place to start for you.

[Sildar]

Respectfully, I disagree strongly with your Iaido teacher. Spiritual training and martial arts have no natural connection. For spirituality, go to church or temple or dance naked in the woods. For philosophy, check out your library or go to class. The thing that makes a martial art different from some other kind of art or craft or practice is that it's martial, about fighting.

Boxing is a sport. Think it's not a martial art? Try to punch a boxer in the face and see what happens. Try tackling a wrestler some time.

The Iaido teacher is correct; sports and martial arts are two different things. This is not a value judgement, this is simply a statement of the fact that different words mean different things.

One need not be a martial artist in order to beat someone up. One may be a skilled athlete or simply a big strong thug.

Yes, martial arts are martial. They are also Arts, which means they demand that an individual experience personal growth in order to master their discipline. Hence they are spiritual. They also demand that an individual must refine their concepts of the nature of combat, therefore they entail the development of a philosophy of fighting.

If the goal is to be successful in a particular form of competition, then one need not understand combat; one only needs the particular set of skills which will lead to success in a highly specific type of athletic competition. Boxing and wrestling are combat sports, or martial sports, but competitors need not train for realistic combat, they train to the rules of the game.