France

[Army Fencer]

Been away for awhile, will be away for longer, but I had to pass on the good news!!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...iraq_france_dc

It looks like France is going to help us in Iraq!

[mrbiggs]

It's good that they're doing that. Of course, it won't make it less embarrassing when we pull out.

[L.O.A.S.]

It's good that they're doing that. Of course, it won't make it less embarrassing when we pull out.

Retreat and surrender. Its what the French are good at.

[mrbiggs]

Retreat and surrender. Its what the French are good at.

Which is why they're the only reason we're not part of Canada...

[Epee_Pox]

Oh yeah, I totally forgot about that war where the French saved us from the invading Canadians. World War 1.5, wasn't it? Some time around 1936?

[telkanuru]

I actually think he was referring to the English defeating the French in the French and Indian war.

Then again, if it wasn't for the French, guess who would still be a colony?

[Epee_Pox]

Algeria? Indochina?


(/snarkiness)

[telkanuru]

An American with know knowledge of history!? SHOCK!!!


[/sarcasm]

[L.O.A.S.]

Then again, if it wasn't for the French, guess who would still be a colony?

Well yes. Without those French soldiers standing shoulder to shoulder with us at the battle of Bunker Hill, Brandywine, Saratoga, Valley Forge, Trenton...............Wait a minute.

I guess they finally did show up at Yorktown. Although in Baseball I doubt it would have counted as a save.

[Inquartata]

Mmmm...nice to see the rhetoric change, but I didn't notice any concrete measures mentioned. I suspect they're still going to refuse to send troops, train Iraqi forces in Iraq or contribute much in the way of funding. Call me cynical, but I rather more than half suspect it's another sally in the direction of obtaining the chance to bid for the rebuilding contracts they were denied before...

[jBirch]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...rce_login=true

And Canada comes to the rescue too. Sorta. Well, we'd like to send troops but they're all either in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Haiti or swimming in the North Atlantic (their sub had a bit of a problem). How about some electoral help? As has been evidenced over the past while Canada knows WAY more about how to run elections than the US. Our system is only mildly screwed, rather then totally screwed. Plus, we like Constitutional Monarchies and wouldn't GWB make a good King of Iraq?

[Army Fencer]

I sense a great deal of snide American arrogance in this thread. It's really quite sad.

I think this is a very important step in the right direction. We need international support and international legitimacy if we are going to succeed in Iraq.

I thought it quite interesting that I couldn't find the story in any of the major news sources I frequent today. I concluded that either the story was unsubstantiated, or the media did not deem it important enough to give it any attention.

I found this (from the French ambassy in the US):
http://www.ambafrance-us.org/news/st...eikh112304.asp

So they really are interested in helping. I find the media's disinterest in the story alarming and irresponsible.

[mrbiggs]

Oh yeah, I totally forgot about that war where the French saved us from the invading Canadians. World War 1.5, wasn't it? Some time around 1936?

How about the Revolutionary War? We didn't have a navy until quite a bit into the nineteenth century. There is no way we could have fought the British without the backing of the French navy. If they hadn't, the rebellion would have been surpressed, we would still be a British colony, and we would be a part of Canada.

(Not that I'm saying that Canada sucks or anything, but I think it's nice to have an independant country.)

(Although many liberals perhaps think we would be better off as part of Canada)

[Epee_Pox]

MrBiggs, I recommend you re-check your facts there. Of course the French navy gave some assistance at the end of the Revolution, but the fledgling USA did have quite an effective navy almost from the start.

Had the French not assisted, there is little dispute that the Colonial Army under Washington would most likely have achieved victory at or about the same time. That does not in any way diminish the assistance of the French.

Had the British won anyway, the colonies would not be part of Canada. They'd have remained the colonies that they were.

Remember that the Revolution was a bitter civil war, with a significant number of colonists opposed to the violent secession. If one had to generalize, those opposed to revolution tended to be better educated, doctors, lawyers, businessmen, and estate holders. (Many of these fled to the wilderness of Kentucky or north to Nova Scotia and Newfoundland.) Their position was that war was not the right way to do it, but rather further negotiation with Parliament so as to achieve independence through lawful legislation, rather than through what they perceived as unnecessary and unlawful war. (Plus ca change...)

This was not some unsubtantiated hope, however. There was a strong movement in Parliament to liberate the colonies. Of course there was a huge economic benefit to having colonies, but independence on British terms would have likely resulted in trade laws beneficial to the Crown. Therefore, it is not at all unlikely that, had the colonies lost the war, they would still have achieved independence sooner or later. But of course this goes much too far into the realm of "what if," and history has already happened.

Returning to the topic of France, note that today's France is not the same France that helped out the colonies. From WWI to WWII, France lost its place as the center of culture, politics, diplomacy, and western society. Its world was turned upside down, its place in that world ceased to exist as they had known it, they humiliatingly lost their colonies in southeast asia and Algeria, and went from being conquered and occupied by Germany to being economically and culturally colonized by its liberators.

This led to a great deal of soul-searching, some bitterness, and a resolve born of pride to resist the dominating influences of the US and Britain. This in turn has resulted in a France that, for nearly half a century, has tended to oppose or refuse to cooperate with the US and Britain when such cooperation might imply that France is just doing our bidding. An example frequently cited is their refusal in the 80s to let US warplanes fly over France en route to their bombing of Libya, something that actually was not uncommon for them to do.

That aside, France remains an ally of the US and Britain, and has been for all of living memory. The relations between us are sometimes strange, for reasons mentioned just now and many other reasons beyond that. And Americans like to poke fun at the French in general, just as the French like to groan about Americans in general. But that's what friends do.

[mrbiggs]

MrBiggs, I recommend you re-check your facts there. Of course the French navy gave some assistance at the end of the Revolution, but the fledgling USA did have quite an effective navy almost from the start.

I realize that historians are bound to disagree on some issues, but the fact is that the U.S. army was small, untrained, and unequipped. The French helped us out alot with that. And not just at the end of the war, either. We didn't have an effective navy. The War of 1812 was caused by the British attacking our merchant ships. We couldn't protect them because of the lack of a navy.

I realize that France his diminished in power since Napolean, but the stereotype of them never winning a war, ever, is pretty inaccurate.


And if, by "all of living memory", you mean "since World War 1", then you are correct.

[Epee_Pox]

MrBiggs, I refer you to the following excellent page on the early history of the US Navy. Note the war fought against the French navy not long after the Revolution. And who can forget the effective use of the US Navy as a forward arm of American strength under Jefferson when it went after the Barbary Pirates (which became the basis in international law for much of present-day antiterrorism). Of course the British Navy trounced us at the outset of the war of 1812, they totally ruled the waves after decades of successes against the French and others. But the US Navy quickly turned the tables and started trouncing them right back.

http://www.history.navy.mil/history/history2.htm


Who ever said the French never won a war? I'm not sure what you're referring to.

And you seem to think the US and England weren't allied with France in WWI. I assure you that we were all on the same side. Unless you know someone who remembers a time when the US and England weren't allied with France, yes, we've been allies for all of living memory.

[telkanuru]

Yeah, but the French didn't do so well in Vietnam.

[Inquartata]

II found this (from the French ambassy in the US):
http://www.ambafrance-us.org/news/st...eikh112304.asp

So they really are interested in helping.

Are they?

I still see no concrete measures offered. "Words, words, mere words, no matter from the heart".