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Mr Epee · 11-22-2004, 02:48 PM

I was at an event recently and encountered the following situation.

Entries = 54

To me this is a no brainer 54 = 9 POOLS of 6.

The BC chose 6 POOLS of 7 and 2 POOLS of 6

There were plenty of strips and plenty of plenty of good directors, so that wasn't an issue.

I went over to discuss the matter and was told that it was more important to have a few pools of 7 than it was to have all the pools be the same size. They claimed that this was the standard for NAC's, as well.

Being in a bigger pool obviously has winning % implications that tips the balance of power a little. I don't understand why pools of 7 are more important than having pools all of the same size.

I was in a larger pool, so I didn't really press the matter.

What gives?

achilleus · 11-22-2004, 02:58 PM

NAC's use pools of 6 or 7 and never use anything smaller. That's standard procedure mostly, as I understand it, to get a more accurate seeding.

Mr Epee · 11-22-2004, 03:02 PM

Yes,

That much I knew.

What I don't get is the choice to make uneven pools when there is an option to make all the pools the same size, and still have pools of 6.

6 def fits into the catagory of real numbers in the sub-set of {6,7}

Obviously you wouldn't want pools of 3 or 10.

CvilleFencer · 11-22-2004, 03:04 PM

In addition to seeding purposes larger pools are prefered by some, especially if the division is far flung geographically, to ensure that half the people did not drive three hours for 4 or 5 pool boughts and then a DE they get sent packing in. While it may take longer, a pool of seven offers more "focused time" to observe what is going on around you as well as the obvious benefit of giveing fencers more strip time to justify their travel and expense.

Remember, half the people are done for the day no matter if it is an A or a U tourney and spending more time getting to the venue than you actually did fencing can be very frustrating for some folks. Give the fencers their moneys worth in other words and let them leave feeling like they actually got some decent strip time in.

edew · 11-22-2004, 03:14 PM

One should always strive to have equally sized pools. USFA have 6s and 7s only because of 1) number of available strips and 2) odd number of fencers. If they can get all of them into 6s, that's great. Better than some 7s and some 6s.

A few weeks back at a local competition, they had 36 fencers and used 5 pools of 6s and 7s. The worst thing was that after the pools were done, the seeding went by total victories as opposed to victories/bout. Several fencers were unfairly screwed and they were not allowed to complain to the BC. (Also, the place had 4 working strips, so 5 pools would have benefitted no better than 6 pools, and may actually take more time given that some were pools of 7.)

Being a BC person on many occasions, I can understand the frustration of having a bunch of people hanging around you watching you set the seeding from the pools. But, there should be a way for the fencers to check the results and see that they're properly sorted before they accept the DE tables.

Victor · 11-22-2004, 03:59 PM

Rule reference o.12 of the USFA Fencing Rules (2002 ed., rev. C) clarifies the division of pools. I'll assume you're capable of looking it up yourself.
If the standard is important enough to you, then perhaps you should show a little more backbone when dealing with the bout committee.

Mr Epee · 11-22-2004, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victor

Rule reference o.12 of the USFA Fencing Rules (2002 ed., rev. C) clarifies the division of pools. I'll assume you're capable of looking it up yourself.
If the standard is important enough to you, then perhaps you should show a little more backbone when dealing with the bout committee.

---------------------------------
o.12 In all competitions for which the formula includes a round of pools, these pools will consist of 7 fencers if the number of participants
is divisible by 7. If not, they will consist of 6 fencers if the number of participants is divisible by 6. Otherwise the pools will be of 7
and 6.
At World Cup competitions the organizing country may add the necessary number of fencers of their own nationality for all the pools
to consist of 7 fencers.
---------------------------------

Well, there you go!

Me right, BC wrong.

I did protest politely, but to no avail.

Victor · 11-22-2004, 04:17 PM

Knoweth thy rules, and no man shall bar your way to a righteous reward. Amen.

ThatReallyHurt · 11-22-2004, 05:55 PM

What if it happens that there are only five people who show? Is that particular group cancelled?

Victor · 11-22-2004, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThatReallyHurt

What if it happens that there are only five people who show? Is that particular group cancelled?

They're lined up and shot with rifles until dead.
Really. It's in the rules.

ThatReallyHurt · 11-23-2004, 12:19 AM

Uh, yeah... I was just wondering because I was at a small tournament where there weren't enough men or women to do a pool of each, so they combined.

tchwojko · 11-23-2004, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victor

They're lined up and shot with rifles until dead.
Really. It's in the rules.

I think you misinterpreted the rules:
o.12.3.14159 In all competitions for which the formula includes a round of pools, if the number of participants is 5 or fewer, shots are lined up for every fencer over 21 years old in lieu of pools.