I think Corps-a-corps is perhaps the poorest officiated of infractions. The calls range from: right on the money, to ignored completely, to not seen, to blaming the wrong person. Let's hear your stories, examples and interpretations on the subject.
During one of my DE's I was fencing a kid who seemed a little new to the sport (I think it may have been his first tournament) and he was falling really far behind. Next thing I knew he fleched (I think that's what he was trying to do) but was way off balance. He ended up ramming his head into my torso.
No cards given at all. The director may have gone easy on him since he seemed new or maybe they didn't see the point since I had scored a touch on him as he was barreling towards me.
Fleche!! Fleche for fantasy.
"Dude! Zombie Keith Moon would be an unstoppable force!!
My opponent and I lunge simultaneously, we end up toe-to-toe, literally, neither of us hit. I recover forwards (still haven't passed each other, and we're on each other's 6 line), and am about to start the infighting. As he's sitting in his lunge stretched out, I'm lifting my bell up to go for a hit down on his leg. Unfortunately I also pulled my hand to the 6 side, (accidentally!) clocking him across the side of his mask. He slowly topples over, while he's seeing stars.
No cards, and I get the touch, to my amazement. He's not coherent enough after the touch to protest. I was close to arguing for the poor guy, because it was so blatantly my fault.
The pool was being self-directed. I don't think I've ever seen a card for corps-a-corps in a self-directed bout, though many occasions where it ought to have been.
This was a few years back, but it took place in at an NAC with normally good directors and a tv crew in place.
Participants - Tamir Bloom vs. R Greenhouse.
Greenhouse had been tagged for a story by ESPN (I think that's who it was). Well anyway, a camera crew had been following him throughout the day. In either the round of 16, or the final, he drew Tamir.
Greenhouse quickly ran up the score to around 6-1, with some really fast straight attacks. He was really moving well and looked like he had a strong chance to eliminate Tamir.
Bloom was obviously upset about getting shredded, especially in front of the cameras. He changed up a little and on the next touch hit Greenhouse with a particularly brutal hip-check. No call by the ref, but Greenhouse had gone flying and was a little shaken up.
I felt that it was pretty obvious that the body contact was intentional. Greenhouse was never particularly sturdy, esp standing next to Tamir.
From that point on, Tamir took control of the bout and won pretty easily.
The no-call on the corp-corp was pretty heinous, especially since the tv crew got to see their feature story manhandled something fierce.
All that said, I do have a lot of respect for both fencers and don't think that Bloom could be faulted for doing what the ref deemed permissable.
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In other news, I once knocked myself cold by flecheing into an opponents fully extended (and static) bell guard with my head. When I was able to get up, the ref did correctly award me a yellow card. I was a little hazy, so maybe the card was for falling, not corp-corp
A situation that has always interested me in how it should be called is one that comes up fairly often with one of our mens foilists. He gets tired, and will consequently fleche. And fleche. And fleche... (ie, 17 fleches in a row later...). I remember a bout where he was repeatedly fleching, and the other fencing was consistantly spinning out (in a counter attack), and into our fencer's fleche.
Some directors have called it the flecher's corps-a-corps, because he initiated the attack. However, the way Derek Cotton explained who is at fault to me, who ever CAUSES the corps-a-corps is responsible. So would the fencer who is spinning out in the counter attack, and thus into the path of the fleche, be at fault?
As to corps-a-corps I have caused... well, I have twice now managed to fleche straight into, and bounce right off of, a fencer. Which is quite mortifying. Both times resulted from my blade being trapped across the other fencers body, and perhaps my poor reaction to it. The first time it happened, I was fencing a little tiny left handed epeeist at a team event. I fleched her to the "Wrong side" because I'm used to right handed fencers, got my blade caught across her body (somehow), and managed to slam into her, ramming MY bell guard into my ribs.
As I curled up on the floor retching and wheezing "are you ok?" to the other fencer, who I thought I had killed (who was in fact quite ok), somehow the director decided not to card me. I deserved a card for that, intentional or not. I had a bruise across my stomach and up into my ribs, and it had been earned THROUGH the breast plate. I hope NEVER to do that again.
A situation that has always interested me in how it should be called is one that comes up fairly often with one of our mens foilists. He gets tired, and will consequently fleche. And fleche. And fleche... (ie, 17 fleches in a row later...). I remember a bout where he was repeatedly fleching, and the other fencing was consistantly spinning out (in a counter attack), and into our fencer's fleche.
Some directors have called it the flecher's corps-a-corps, because he initiated the attack. However, the way Derek Cotton explained who is at fault to me, who ever CAUSES the corps-a-corps is responsible. So would the fencer who is spinning out in the counter attack, and thus into the path of the fleche, be at fault?
Derek is exactly right, although he should've pointed out that it's possible for both people to earn cards at the same time for corps-a-corps.
I'd have to see the action in question, but the counter attacker will most likely earn a card.
I still remember watching the video of Obry vs. Fischer at the 2000 OG and Fischer loses the bout on red cards for corps-a-corps. The last card was definitely bogus. Obry stepped in causing the hit. The previous cards, well, Obry maybe stepped in, but Fischer clearly clocked him in the head at least once....
We're no threat, people, we're not dirty, we're not mean
We love everybody but we do as we please
When the weather's fine,
We go fishin' or go swimmin' in the sea
We're always happy
Life's for livin', yeah, that's our philosophy
Fencing foil at the PCCs. Derek Cotton was refereeing (trying to be a good referee, then, I guess). Tall guy runs into me, but not much contact. I fell to insinuate a severe corps-a-corps. Derek gives me a yellow card for falling. He should have given the other fencer the card for the corps-a-corps, and he should have given several others that he did not see (which is why I had to make a fall).
Derek also didn't bother to card the guy for three failed weapons and two failed body cords. The guy had a bad weapon, exchanged it three times and also two body cord exchanges. No cards. Me, two, one for the fall and one for corps-a-corps.
Fencing foil at the PCCs. Derek Cotton was refereeing (trying to be a good referee, then, I guess). Tall guy runs into me, but not much contact. I fell to insinuate a severe corps-a-corps. Derek gives me a yellow card for falling. He should have given the other fencer the card for the corps-a-corps, and he should have given several others that he did not see (which is why I had to make a fall).
Derek also didn't bother to card the guy for three failed weapons and two failed body cords. The guy had a bad weapon, exchanged it three times and also two body cord exchanges. No cards. Me, two, one for the fall and one for corps-a-corps.
Yeah, but if Derek doesn't like you and is friends with the other guy, that all makes sense...
Especially at the smaller events. At WC's and some NAC's Derek really pays close attention and follows the rules. At the lower level events, well, he enjoys himself.
I still remember a team event at sectionals where Derek was making a horrific call against a team. He was allowing the point the opponent scored, and carding the fencer on the same action for covering (or something like that). It went on for a few times, until somebody informed the bout committee and Derek was told that he could not card and award the point...
Last edited by achilleus; 11-19-2004 at 07:08 PM.
We're no threat, people, we're not dirty, we're not mean
We love everybody but we do as we please
When the weather's fine,
We go fishin' or go swimmin' in the sea
We're always happy
Life's for livin', yeah, that's our philosophy
I was refereeing Boys U18 foil (national level) a few weeks ago.
One of the boys was a bit "heavy shouldered". I warned him, then started carding. I carded him a number of times for corps-a-corps and once for turning (he spun right around...). He then got hit in preparation, before barging into his opponent. I phrased the hit, gave the hit against him, then awarded the red card. I then incremented his opponent's score by two (one for the hit, one for the red card). "heavy shouldered" guy raised his mask, argued, I explained what the two point were for and he said "I'll hit you in a minute!"... at which point I gave another red card (should have been black...).
"Heavy shouldered" guy lost quite convincingly (considerably helped by the 5 red cards he picked up along the way...)
Fencing foil at the PCCs. Derek Cotton was refereeing (trying to be a good referee, then, I guess). Tall guy runs into me, but not much contact. I fell to insinuate a severe corps-a-corps. Derek gives me a yellow card for falling. He should have given the other fencer the card for the corps-a-corps, and he should have given several others that he did not see (which is why I had to make a fall).
Back from the worst injury thread:
T'was run into causing a concussion - I got carded for the subsequent falling.
Wow, Derek Cotton's reputation is taking a battering today.
Don't get me wrong, he's a great ref, and he knows the rules.
But everyone has their off days...
We're no threat, people, we're not dirty, we're not mean
We love everybody but we do as we please
When the weather's fine,
We go fishin' or go swimmin' in the sea
We're always happy
Life's for livin', yeah, that's our philosophy
I was refereeing Boys U18 foil (national level) a few weeks ago.
One of the boys was a bit "heavy shouldered". I warned him, then started carding. I carded him a number of times for corps-a-corps and once for turning (he spun right around...). He then got hit in preparation, before barging into his opponent. I phrased the hit, gave the hit against him, then awarded the red card. I then incremented his opponent's score by two (one for the hit, one for the red card). "heavy shouldered" guy raised his mask, argued, I explained what the two point were for and he said "I'll hit you in a minute!"... at which point I gave another red card (should have been black...).
"Heavy shouldered" guy lost quite convincingly (considerably helped by the 5 red cards he picked up along the way...)
Boo
Yup, should have been a black card for threatening the ref, and reported to the national body for uttering threats.
I don't know if it'd the case in the US, but it'd be in CDA could have been a criminal offence.
Boys like this might grow up to be a wife-beater or bully, if he's not already.
I was under attack. I step in, took prime and as my arm went skyward for the riposte, i collected my opp't under his chin. He fell over. He flew backwards.
Another time, similar scenario, my opp't ran into my elbow with his mask. He went flying backwards.
I think in both case, my opp't got the warning - this was before cards were used in fencing - when i should have been.
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In most cases when it's self-directing, most competitors would hesitate to card another comp. in the same pool.
He was allowing the point the opponent scored, and carding the fencer on the same action for covering (or something like that). It went on for a few times, until somebody informed the bout committee and Derek was told that he could not card and award the point...
From the rule book as it stood before this year:
t.22
The use of the non-sword hand and arm to carry out an offensive or defensive action is forbidden (cf. t.114, t.116, t.120). Should such an offence occur, the touch scored by the fencer at fault is annulled.
In foil and saber, it is forbidden to protect the target area or to substitute another part of the body for the target area, either by covering or by an abnormal movement (cf. t.114, t.116, t.120).
It appears that Derek may have been right. (Until this year when many annulments were added to the penalties), it would appear from t.22 that using the non-weapon arm (such as to parry) annulled a touch, but covering target with it didn't. See also the screenshot of the penalty chart attached to this post that lacks the asterisk that the chart uses to indicate annulment of a touch.
Unless I'm reading it wrong.....
Why do i care? well, let's just say i may have a habit of finding myself on the wrong end of this particular call on occasion, and once a few years back I looked up whether or not i could still score.
Again, IIRC, this year pretty much all 1st group offences annul a touch by the offender.
Again, IIRC, this year pretty much all 1st group offences annul a touch by the offender.
Not exactly. These are first group offenses not involving annulling of a touch scored by the offender:
Leaving the strip without permission
Delaying the Bout
Placing the weapon on the strip to straighten it
Clothing/equipment not working or not conforming; absence of second regulation weapon or bodycord
Bending/dragging weapon point on conductive strip
Deliberate touch not on the opponent
Refusal to obey the Referee
Unjustified appeal
The challenge is for the fencer to devise some way to score a touch while committing one of these offenses!
Extra credit goes to anyone who scores a touch while making a deliberate touch not on the opponent. (An equipment malfunction is not an allowed solution, nor is pulling the floor cord part way out of the box, then intentionally hitting the A prong; the referee would already have annulled the touch as is his prerogative for any touch he knows with certainty could not have been a valid touch.)
No, maybe this is too easy. Upon reflection, I picture an épéeist pausing, holding his weapon cross-wise both to his own line of sight and that of his opponent's, so some hideous bend is clearly visible to both, then calmly placing the weapon on the strip without a halt being announced, placing a foot on it, working it in and out under the foot, then shoving so far under the foot that it hits the foot of the opponent.
Or, maybe, some perverse referee orders the fencer not to score any touches on his opponent, but then he does so.
In a sorta recent tournament, I was fencing in a close pool bout. I fleched on my opponent. Rather than taking a retreat as he had done every other touch during the bout, he decided to close distance and duck (all in one move.) I hit him, of course. So, was it my card, or no card because we both closed distance.
The ref gave it to him, although I can't blame the ref, seeing as that my opponent rolled over backwards three times before lying on the ground, then making several attempts to get up, failing on the first couple, before getting back en guarde. Then again, it was a red card, so it'd be neat to know.
I was in a qualifier for foil once, and fencing a newbie who kept trying to bounce into me to push me back and hit. It wasn't working for him, but the director really didn't seem to want to throw the card that bout for whatever reason.
Eventually I decided I had enough of it, and rooted with the stuff I learned for the shotokan forward stance (Mas Oyama was good enough at it to exaust a bull that was trying to push him back, I'm good enough to stop a newbie and most people bigger than me).
The kid ended up if you can picture it rushing into into me thinking he'd bounce me aside like before, then ended there with his legs uslessly flailing desperately trying to push me, while I stood there calmly like a rock doing my best impression of a brick wall not moving an inch, and sighed loudly. Finally after like 5 seconds of this spectacle the director called a halt and said you can't just walk into the guy and carded him.
At the lower level competitions where ther simply aren't enough directors and the fencers have to self-officiate each other, oddly enough, this is when the rules are more strictly adhered to. Otherwise, like all other aspects of directing, it's a crap-shoot and is extremely inconsistent.
Heaven is where the police are British, the chefs Italian, the mechanics are German, the lovers are French, and its all organized by the Swiss.
Hell is where the police are German, the chefs are British, the mechanics are French, the lovers are Swiss, and it's all organized by the Italians.
"I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered" George Best
Originally Posted by MyraTrue 
and once a few years back I looked up whether or not i could still score. 
