We're back in the USSR...

[telkanuru]

It seems the Russian federation under Putin is returning to a dictatorial state. I say this in regard to his consolidation of the media, the destruction and assault on the business kingpins, and the recent plan to remove the ability of independant candidates to run for government positions and to make the position of reigional governor an appointment position instead of an elected one. So, is this a revival of the Soviet Union by an ex-KGB officer and all the political problems that result from such, or merely paranoia from a left-winger like myself who likes such things as freedom of the press and the ability to vote?

[reposte]

seems the Russian federation under Putin is returning to a dictatorial state

When was it not in a dictatorial status...?

[telkanuru]

It was theoretically a democracy under Yeltsin (sp?). Then again, there was that incident with the tanks, so... Can we say "even more dictatorial"?

[jeff]

back in the USSR... - you don't know how lucky you are, boy... (Lennon - McCartney).

[Talon]

This article popped up when I was logging onto AIM on a school computer. Has to do with Russia's nuclear weapons program...

"MOSCOW (AP) - President Vladimir Putin said Wednesday that Russia is
developing a new form of nuclear missile unlike those held by other
countries, news agencies reported."

``I am sure that ... they will be put in service within the next few
years and, what is more, they will be developments of the kind that
other nuclear powers do not and will not have,'' Putin was quoted as
saying by the ITAR-Tass news agency.

Earlier this year, a senior Defense Ministry official was quoted as
telling news agencies that Russia had developed a weapon that could
make the United States' proposed missile-defense system useless.
Details were not given, but military analysts said the claimed new
weapon could be a hypersonic cruise missile or maneuverable ballistic
missile warheads.


Let that last one digest for a bit

[jeff]

Originally Posted by Talon

a senior Defense Ministry official was quoted as telling news agencies that Russia had developed a weapon that could make the United States' proposed missile-defense system useless.

That's even assuming that the missile-defense system would actually work in the first place. Remember Star Wars program under Reagan? That was completely unrealistic nonsense. Though they've made a lot of progress since then (computers are a heck of a lot faster now than then) this is still an incredibly difficult problem to solve, and tests thus far haven't increased my confidence. Even without a new, magic Russian missile system, the proposed system has plenty of holes in it, not least of which is the idea that the scariest way to deliver a nuclear weapon is a small anonymous truck. Isn't there some saying about generals always preparing to fight the previous war?

[S. Hunter]

That's even assuming that the missile-defense system would actually work in the first place. Remember Star Wars program under Reagan? That was completely unrealistic nonsense. Though they've made a lot of progress since then (computers are a heck of a lot faster now than then) this is still an incredibly difficult problem to solve, and tests thus far haven't increased my confidence. Even without a new, magic Russian missile system, the proposed system has plenty of holes in it, not least of which is the idea that the scariest way to deliver a nuclear weapon is a small anonymous truck. Isn't there some saying about generals always preparing to fight the previous war?

Even if they make a few dozen of these fancy new missiles, there is always M.A.D to be concerned about, and lets face it - We know where a heck of a lot more of our missiles are than they do of theirs. :-D (Ours also have this funny tendency to work and have fuel when we need them)

[S. Hunter]

It seems the Russian federation under Putin is returning to a dictatorial state. I say this in regard to his consolidation of the media, the destruction and assault on the business kingpins, and the recent plan to remove the ability of independant candidates to run for government positions and to make the position of reigional governor an appointment position instead of an elected one. So, is this a revival of the Soviet Union by an ex-KGB officer and all the political problems that result from such, or merely paranoia from a left-winger like myself who likes such things as freedom of the press and the ability to vote?

Well Russia is definately not going soviet - They don't show a whole lot of intrest in invading any former eastern bloc countries - They can barely hold their own country together. The economic and military state of russia is just a fraction of the soviet union even near the collapse - If russia goes soviet it wil be in name only. They realistically cant threaten america, europe, or china on a military level.

(P.S.: I love Russian culture, so I may be a bit biased to think them harmless. I also enjoy old soviet style propaganda and music just for the tone and artistic styles present.)

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by S. Hunter

Well Russia is definately not going soviet - They don't show a whole lot of intrest in invading any former eastern bloc countries - They can barely hold their own country together. The economic and military state of russia is just a fraction of the soviet union even near the collapse - If russia goes soviet it wil be in name only. They realistically cant threaten america, europe, or china on a military level.

Right now, maybe. But they still have nukes, and if the wrong person comes into power.......well, bad times.


Most scientists agree that the missle defense system is practically a joke. Even if it was perfected, and put into operation, it still would not have a 100% rate of blocking missiles. And if there's a few thousand coming at us, 100% is really what we need.

Think of it this way-the most realistic version of the defense system involves hitting a missile with another missile. They're each going hundreds of miles an hour.

Still, I think it's necessary for us to work on one, so maybe we can put it to use someday. Or, politicians can just use it as a political tool, and it will perform a service that way.

[Insipiens]

Originally Posted by S. Hunter

Well Russia is definately not going soviet - They don't show a whole lot of intrest in invading any former eastern bloc countries - They can barely hold their own country together. The economic and military state of russia is just a fraction of the soviet union even near the collapse - If russia goes soviet it wil be in name only. They realistically cant threaten america, europe, or china on a military level.

(P.S.: I love Russian culture, so I may be a bit biased to think them harmless. I also enjoy old soviet style propaganda and music just for the tone and artistic styles present.)

Russia may not be threatening the former soviet bloc states of Eastern Europe but if you ask Georgia, Kazakhstan, whatever they call Belorussia these days you might get a different answer to how threatened they feel by Russia.

It can be dictatorial without being "soviet."

For social engineering on the scale of the USSR you can look to the UK instead as Comrade Blair's government seeks to introduce compulsory identity cards, bans hunting, bans corporal punishment of children by their parents, increases CCTV cameras so that there are more cameras per person than any other country in the world, imprisons people without trial, etc etc

[latenight]

It's pretty widely believed that Putin's new weapon system is just political puffery to show the Russian Millitary is still strong despite all the setbacks it has had eg Chechnya.

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Most scientists agree that the missle defense system is practically a joke. Even if it was perfected, and put into operation, it still would not have a 100% rate of blocking missiles. And if there's a few thousand coming at us, 100% is really what we need.

Think of it this way-the most realistic version of the defense system involves hitting a missile with another missile. They're each going hundreds of miles an hour.

They (Bush Admin) are currently deploying a missile defense system that is ridiculously inept. If I remember correctly, it couldn't even shoot down a known missile on a known trajectory with a GPS locator on it. How much R&D will be scrapped in favor of rushing a "not quite right" missile defense system?

[Soldier]

As something of a sidenote: They have no problem tracking and targeting missiles; the known trajectory and GPS locators make no difference.

The challenge is in the laser itself, specifically diffraction - how to get a laser beam tight enough that it won't completely diffract and refract through all those miles of atmosphere on the way to the target.

I remember seeing a laser demonstration down in the physics department here; they used a holographically focused laser to put a point only a few micrometers across on a brick; it actually began to melt the brick at that point.

And don't ask me how a laser is holographically focused; I have no idea. They didn't say, and even if they had, I doubt it would have made any sense to me.

[Agent_V]

Originally Posted by Soldier

As something of a sidenote: They have no problem tracking and targeting missiles; the known trajectory and GPS locators make no difference.

The challenge is in the laser itself, specifically diffraction - how to get a laser beam tight enough that it won't completely diffract and refract through all those miles of atmosphere on the way to the target.

I remember seeing a laser demonstration down in the physics department here; they used a holographically focused laser to put a point only a few micrometers across on a brick; it actually began to melt the brick at that point.

And don't ask me how a laser is holographically focused; I have no idea. They didn't say, and even if they had, I doubt it would have made any sense to me.

what laser are you talking about? the old reagan-era star wars program was supposed to use lasers, but that was scrapped for small kinetic missile instead (i.e. trying to shoot down bullets with another bullet...)

-Alexander

[Inquartata]

Hmm...if you live in Chicago, and an ABM system stops an incoming ICBM from incinerating you and your family, but fails to save New York, Los Angeles and Dallas, it seems that it's still a net plus for you, no? And if the alternative is not to save Chicago either, a good deal for the country as a whole as well, IMO.

[jeff]

Except that it's a false sense of security - which is worse than being insecure and knowing about it. Probably Chicago and any other target wanted would still be taken out. The obvious plan of action (discussed ever since original SDI was discussed) was to overwhelm the system with missiles and chad. That problem still exists, even if we had better test results with the 'bullet hitting a bullet system' than we've had so far. As esskreemr pointed out, the current system is pretty unconvincing in the tests run so far. On another technology hurdle: God forbid the Big Day ever came, we'd be counting on hundreds of millions of lines of software that have never been run outside of simulation to work correctly the first time its ever run. Dream on.

This is just fighting the Cold War again: the money would be much better spent tightening our borders and ports where it would be easier to sneak a nuke in via low tech methods. Building a new missile defence Maginot Line is insanity.

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by Agent_V

what laser are you talking about? the old reagan-era star wars program was supposed to use lasers, but that was scrapped for small kinetic missile instead (i.e. trying to shoot down bullets with another bullet...)

-Alexander

The lasers they're playing with, including in the physics departments here, trying to get something that would work for a StarWars system.

And Jeff, I think I agree with you on the borders.

[jeff]

Thanks, Soldier. We do agree occasionally. I hope some of the people paid to think about this read a little more military history and think about the "fighting the last war" habit. Today is not like 1963 with a face-off between USSR and USA with ICBMs.

[Soldier]

ICBM defense would be great. If some of these brains can get their lasers working better, we might end up having something pretty solid.

All the same, yes, I think the borders should be higher priority at the moment.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by jeff

God forbid the Big Day ever came, we'd be counting on hundreds of millions of lines of software that have never been run outside of simulation to work correctly the first time its ever run. Dream on.

Sort of like the global warming models, in other words?