system of fencer development in america

[drippingwet]

I was wondering how the system works in America. In UK, it doesn't appear sufficient, and if you want to do well, it's best if you're rolling in cash. But even cash can only take you so far. In UK, clubs mainly operate through small payments on the door - about $6, and you get about 5-10 mins coaching - this would seem highly inadequate compared to what you would need if you were going to do well internationally. I don't think there are any scholarships and there doesn't seem to be a commercial approach to any of the clubs, so you can't really have dedicated fencing centres.

Maybe its about populatirty, maybe there's more of it in USA. In this country, football, rugby and cricket are the national sports. But that's not just it, even other martial arts appear to hold much more popularity than fencing, even to the extent that you can have a commercial approach in UK and therefore full time centres - things like taekwondo/karate.

But then, why would fencing be popular? I got into the sport perhaps because I thought it was cool and maybe I wanted to do something classy i.e I found the sport, it didn't find me. In my country, underprivilaged young people aren't out there donning breeches and crossing blades with their pals, they're playing football - a relatively cheap sport since all you need is a ball and a few jackets to substitute for goal posts. Maybe it's to do with the culture in this country. But then I think, maybe not. Not long ago, I was highly involved with the world of water sports, I even used to instruct. Sailing is very popular in my country, with incredable success in Athens and much coverage on TV. But sailing is much more expensive than fencing and it's much more of a bigger deal in terms of what there is to consider - it's not just the sporting element, it's also the safety, the clothing, the equipment, before you even consider the technique and tactics.

I just don't get it, so if there's any cultural experts out there...

[JackSparrow]

I think you have to refer to football here as soccer to avoid confusion.

[BoutAfrica]

Sorry Pom. I aint a Yank but i do have the same problem as you. Cricket, rugby and soccer are far too popular. People are ether too poor, uneducated or just couldent give a dam about fencin.

[JackSparrow]

I do agree with you. I found the BBC's two second coverage of Richard Kruse's last 8 result in the Olympics fairly insulting. I just wonder if it would have been any better if he had won a medal. Sadly I doubt it.

[Victor]

It's rarely discussed in America, but genetic testing is a MAJOR component in our fencing training system. Only students who have been tested (usually by age 7) for the appropriate DNA markers are allowed to receive a higher level of coaching at reduced prices; all others must pay very expensive fees.

[JackSparrow]

My god! What kind of corupt system is that? I'm going to write a complaint letter to someone important looking right now!

[ls14evar]

We can tell who didnt have the right DNA marker.

[JackSparrow]

I did think my lessons were a bit pricey

[oiuyt]

I don't think TV coverage is the difference. Soren Thompson's L8 finish in Athens didn't get mentioned here.

At the local level, which is where most of fencing happens here, and I'd imagine pretty much everywhere, there isn't a "system." Just local people doing their own thing for a variety of reasons. Some clubs are extremely part-time, others are full-time fencing centers. Some start as one and slowly build into the other.

Financial set-ups of the clubs are also hugely varied both regionally and within a local area. There are clubs that are basically run as a "love of the sport"-type endevor by a dedicated coach. There are clubs that are run with the primary purpose of training would-be international-level fencers and charge commenserately. There are clubs which are designed to generate money for the owner/coach and run massive numbers of large group classes and target the same demographic as belt-mill martial arts dojos. There's pretty much every other imaginable model and all possible hybrids.

Clubs that I've been a part of:
A) A collegiate varsity team (these are a whole separate thing and unlikely to help with what you're interested in).
B) A private club that was associated with a collegiate program (free space in exchange for free membership for the students).
C) A collegiate club team
D) A long-established non-profit private club
E) A recently founded for-profit private club (which is now in the process of going non-profit)
F) Another collegiate varsity team
G) A moderately long established for-profit private club
H) relatively new private club

I'll ignore A and F for now.

B was mostly open fencing with each weapon having a dedicated night. The space was dedicated fencing space (collegiate fencing room) but was only occupied by the club for a few hours each evening. A 3-W coach who ran the club and offered private lessons for a per-lesson fee. VERY strong fencers. Was really the only place for competitive fencers in the city (since then another private club has opened). The strong collegiate program, alumni from the collegiate program, and a number of local fencers comprised the membership. As I was a student at the time and therefore attending for free I'm unclear on what actual membership costs were.

C may or may not really apply. Funding was a mix of institutional funding, dues paid by the members ($200/year), and fundraising. That funding was then used to pay for coaching, club equipment, and travel and competition fees for meets against other area schools. Recently the team has started massively increased fundraising in order to travel to a national collegiate club competition. I don't know enough of how collegiate clubs are set up in Britain to compare.

D charged an annual membership fee (at the time (1999-2000) $240, I believe they're now up ~$400) or a walk-in floor fee ($10). Lessons are extra ($25 for ~30 minutes). Large dedicated facility with ~10 strips. A number of coaches at various levels. A well-established junior program with some very good fencers (some years up to junior/cadet national squad level). Lots of fencers including some good strength. Oldest club in the area and best established. Recently getting some pressure from some newer clubs.

E was founded because a local coach wasn't happy with the fact that there was virtually no non-collegiate fencing available in the area. He bought a couple of sets of strip equipment, found a local room that he could rent, and started the club meeting 3 evenings/week. Monthly membership fee, lessons extra, $5 walk-in fee for non-members. Immediately pulled in a bunch of the local collegiate fencers looking for another night of training. A few group classes helped to cover the rent. Set up a junior team program with designated times for the juniors to come in for training aside from the open fencing time. Is currently in the process of filing for non-profit status and is moving to a new dedicated location. Took ~3 years to go from start-up to enough members that they're signing the lease for space. Likely should have taken another year or two of building before they're really ready for the larger space, but the rental is low enough that it made sense to go ahead now. Advertising was via yellow pages, word-of-mouth, demonstrations at a local movie theater, and, rarely, via a couple of articles in local papers. Having a core group of experienced fencers from the local clubs helped rather than trying to train an entire club up from scratch. If doing this I'd suggest advertising/doing demos in local high schools. In the US parents are frequently looking for organized activities for thier children of all ages, and fencing clubs are another option to meet that demand.

G I'm new to. Club charges a monthly fee. Lessons are extra. Several coaches of high caliber. Strong junior program with separate training times. Fairly expensive club compared to the others that I've been associated with ($65/month). Dedicated space. 6 strips. I don't know enough about how they recruit members.

H has been a club with only a drop-in fee ($10) and no membership fee. Lessons are extra ($20). Non-dedicated space (rented municipal multi-purpose room). Equipment travels in the car of one of the coaches. Has only been established ~4 years. Several very good coaches. Strong juniors, but no separate junior program. Just open fencing and lessons. Don't know how they started with recruiting. Strong coaching is a good pull for established fencers. They are now in the process of moving into dedicated space. Took ~4 years to go from start-up to that point.

Of these clubs, B ended up training people that were very strong regionally but weren't going to competing for national squad positions. When I was there there were fencers good enough to make national points (top 50 in the US), including at least one fencer who was borderline for the top 20.

As previously mentioned B had a very strong junior program. One of the US's Olympians from Athens is from this club, although he doesn't train there most of the year (originally from the club, is rarely in the area any more, but still considers it his official club). This club is also home to a couple of the US's vet world-championships team members.

E is really only a local club. The best fencers there are generally people who also train elsewhere or who were very good before the club was founded. But then again the club is fairly new. A few members are starting to compete nationally in lower-level competitions.

G has a large number of fencers who compete nationally or internationally including at least one fencer on an age-group national team.

H has a number of fencers who compete nationally and internationally in the cadet and junior ranks.

And that's just the clubs that I've been a member of.

-B :)

[Style]

My salle has a lifetime membership fee of $500. And a $170 monthly 6-day a week full access cost.

If you're a begginner, it costs you $80 a month for twice a week.


If you are at the $170 level, you get two lessons a week, each lessons runs between 15-30 minutes.

My fencing master is 82 years old (give or take a year).

[Victor]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Clubs that I've been a part of: (listing clubs A-H) ...

No one wants you to stay around, eh?

[ls14evar]

Originally Posted by Style

My salle has a lifetime membership fee of $500.

So you have to pay $500 to join? One time thing in addition to regular monthly fees? Seems like that would be quite the barrier to new folks signing up.

[scrapinpeg]

There isn't a system for development as a fencer here.

In the US, every salle does it their own way, and most lack a structured progression of achievement. Instead, you take lessons or not, and learn stuff or not, but without anything resembling a uniform set of skills within identifiable levels of competence.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Victor

No one wants you to stay around, eh? :)

Heh. :)

I actually realized I missed one.

Club was private club run in dedicated space. 2 strips, 1 coach. Membership fees changed periodically. When I was there I paid a $5 walk-in floor fee. Lessons were extra. Was the only available club in the area. minimal marketing at best. A junior class on Sat. mornings that had next to 0 carry-over to the open fencing nights (twice/week). Mostly fencers that already knew how to fence before coming to the area. Low turn-out. No aims to develop stronger fencers, nor the ability to. Eventually closed. Reopened in rented dojo space and a new pricing system that required minimum annual membership (fairly pricy, and if you were a college student the price was doubled, which, needless to say, didn't attract any college students). Closed again fairly quickly due in part to the stupid fee system (and therefore a complete lack of students).

I expect to be adding another club to the list in the near future.

I've moved a fair amount and I've been involved in multiple clubs at nearly every stop. More people to play with and more nights to play on.

-B :)

[Robert (2)]

Originally Posted by JackSparrow

I do agree with you. I found the BBC's two second coverage of Richard Kruse's last 8 result in the Olympics fairly insulting. I just wonder if it would have been any better if he had won a medal. Sadly I doubt it.

Our wheelchair sabreur got a longer section in the paralympics, and unlike Kruse he was a serious medal contender. So, yes, if Kruse was genuinely in with a chance of medal (or got one) he would get more coverage. Though never as much as the athletics (bear in mind fencing is one of the soft sports at the olympics, and it isn't great from a televisual point of view).

Robert

[LUDICROUS]

Clubs in the USA sound disgustingly expensive! My club has three pistes in a high level room of a convention centre (which is in a horse racing course...) and I only had to pay 112$ NZD for half year membership (thats when I joined). Theres a 2 hour session for us beginners, then the coach gives one on one lessons to whoever turns up, and whoever wishes to fence just takes a piste.

[Heraclita]

They're not all that expensive. My club meets 2 times a week for about 2 and a half hours. It only costs $15 a month. Its also a non-profit organization.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by LUDICROUS

Clubs in the USA sound disgustingly expensive! My club has three pistes in a high level room of a convention centre (which is in a horse racing course...) and I only had to pay 112$ NZD for half year membership (thats when I joined). Theres a 2 hour session for us beginners, then the coach gives one on one lessons to whoever turns up, and whoever wishes to fence just takes a piste.

Follow the money. How does the coach get paid? How do the facilities (rent, utilities, etc.) get paid? My guess is the answer is very different for your situation than for a lot of the US.

Craig

[LUDICROUS]

Originally Posted by Craig

Follow the money. How does the coach get paid? How do the facilities (rent, utilities, etc.) get paid? My guess is the answer is very different for your situation than for a lot of the US.

Craig

Fair enough that - I dont think the rent is terribly high at our club.

[neevel]

It's a matter of getting what you pay for. The higher prices are for clubs with professional (i.e., no day job, or at least their day job is the "second" one with coaching as the "first" job) coaching staff and large, dedicated facilities. These are the clubs that are capable of turning out viable national and international level competitors on a routine basis, and the ones that fencers with high-level ambitions migrate to. These same high-level clubs (with some co-ordination and support for individual athletes on US Fencing's part) are the "system" for training elite fencers in the US. There are also some University teams with very high level coaching (e.g., Naz at Ohio State) which can also be counted as a component of the US elite training system. Even if Univeristies don't have a truly elite level program, they can still play a role by providing support for college-age fencers. Where the US has nothing to match the major European powers is in support for athletes to continue their training full-time after University.

For fencers who don't have high-level competitive ambitions, there are plenty of other clubs that operate out of either smaller or non-dedicated spaces, with coaches who aren't doing it as their primary job, and which cost much less. You can fence recreationally and attain a good measure of success in regional and non-elite national competitions from such clubs, but probably won't have access to the sort of training needed to make a World Championships or Olympic team.