Slightly disheartened

[drippingwet]

I don't know... this game is hard work, and I'm not talking physically. I win plenty of bouts even against good fencers, but there's just something outstanding that's preventing me from feeling complete as a fencer at my current level. I just want to have an identity in my fencing, an approach, something which I can focus on which isn't the invention of my own unquilified mind, but the product of well established teachings. I mean what happens next... I'm talking tactics, not technique. Technique is something for me and my coach which is otherwise difficult to learn from text. Tactics/strategy is my big concern right now. If I can parry riposte, attack etc, how do I use my moves at the right time. I'm not asking just for specifics. Anyway, I'll read any comments and see if it was what I've been looking for. I've got a tourney coming up, I've also ordered apparently a really good book, which isn't due to arrive until January!!!

Thanks for your time.

[Boo Boo]

Why don't you step outside of the strategic/tactical thing for a minute and look at the bigger picture?

Have you set yourself goals/aims (short term - maybe a year - and longer term)? Identified what steps you need to achieve these? Identify your strengths and weaknesses? Identify what you need to do to build on your strengths and address your weaknesses?

Have you looked outside of the fencing skills area of your training? Have you looked at your fitness, strength, speed, agility, flexibility and psychology?

Sounds as though you need a direction/aim to your fencing.

Boo

[drippingwet]

This stuff is useful, but int he case of strength and weaknesses, I really need a strength to begin with, and I'm not sure I have a particular strength.

[Boo Boo]

This stuff is useful, but int he case of strength and weaknesses, I really need a strength to begin with, and I'm not sure I have a particular strength.

I thought that you thought that your parries were good? Are you tall? Are you strong? Are you fast? Do you have good acceleration? Is your footwork good? Changes of direction? Are you aggressive? You must know what you do well? Or, to put it another way, you must think that you have some attributes that put you equal to some of the best juniors in the UK... so, what are they?

As for weaknesses, what do people hit you with? Do people always attack into your preparation? Do people affectvely counter attack your attacks? Do you get tired very quickly? Do you often go off the side/back of the piste? Do you get really nervous/anxious?

It's not one strength that you should look for, you should have a good, honest look at all aspects of your fencing...

Boo

[drippingwet]

Yeah, I can parr 4 quite well. But even then I get annoying little niggles like when should you retreat, half-retreat and stand still with the parry. It little things like that which also get me a bit disheartened.

I suppose by biggest vulnerablity lately has been my own AIPs working against me, I'll have to stop doing them unless the opponent is clearly exposed. It would interesting to see how much more often I can beat my coach without doing so many AIPs.

I really do love this game, but sometimes it can really make you quite unhappy. All I need is an approach, which is proper traditional stuff and not wild experimentation, that I can concentrate on and perfect. I suppose I should get some personal time with my coach - £20/hour. Some people are lucky in fencing. When you really want to go far but find that it's very difficult, I suppose it gives you some idea of what it's like for kids in places like Africa who find it hard to get even an education, never mind being taught how to play with swords.

[Boo Boo]

Yeah, I can parr 4 quite well. But even then I get annoying little niggles like when should you retreat, half-retreat and stand still with the parry. It little things like that which also get me a bit disheartened.

Ok, so a strength (well, sort of) is "parry 4" - maybe. A weakness is "distance" - the distance is what disctates when you parry.

So, one of the things that you will need to work on is distance. If you get the distance right, your parry will work.

So, what are your other strengths and weaknesses? Ok, you might not want to make this a public exercise (since advertising your weaknesses may not be the best thing... not that you are likely to meet me in competition )

I suppose by biggest vulnerablity lately has been my own AIPs working against me.

Not sure I understand this completely... your timing is incorrect (i.e. the ref is calling your intended AIP, a counter-attack?)?

I'll have to stop doing them unless the opponent is clearly exposed.

What do you define as "clearly exposed"? It is a common beginner/novice mistake to "go for the gap" that looks so inviting... so experienced fencers use this against them (slow preparation, draw the "AIP"/counter, then finish the hit). Sounds as though you are falling into that trap a lot.

It would interesting to see how much more often I can beat my coach without doing so many AIPs.

Try a different approach, do AIPs that either take right of way (i.e. "beat attack on preparation" or produce one light (i.e. "stop hit and run away").

Who is your coach (I am not familar with many coaches in your area of the country...)? If your coach is beating you because you do so many AIPs, he (assuming your coach is a he) should be beating you over the head for doing that and/or giving you constructive advice about what to do instead. Fencing your coach should be a great advantage - he should know exactly what your strengths and weaknesses are!

I really do love this game, but sometimes it can really make you quite unhappy.

What EXACTLY is making you unhappy? Not getting the results that you want (at competition)? Don't feel that you are learning fast enough? What? What do you want to get out of your fencing.

All I need is an approach, which is proper traditional stuff and not wild experimentation, that I can concentrate on and perfect..

Try doing what i suggested earlier... you need to look at yourself before you develop your approach: the approach that works for one person, may not work for another (for example Vezzali has a very different style from Youcheva).

I suppose I should get some personal time with my coach - £20/hour.

That would help. What coaching do you currently get? Have you spoken to your coach about your unhappiness and asked him for suggestions about how to address it?

When you really want to go far but find that it's very difficult

So how far do you want to go and how are you going to get there? Hhhmmm, back to personal goals/aims and working out what you need to do to achieve it again...?

Boo

[Zelda]

I have been fencing 6 years now and am still trying to work out tactics. For me its a very induvidual thing which is continually evolving. Boo has said some very wise things....and knowing the results she has got I would say they would work on a general level.

It is however a matter of sitting down and saying "What do I want to achieve?" (which reminds me, I have to do my goals for next year). And "what do I have to do to achieve that?"

It may be as simple as knowing WHEN to use AiP or somethign totally different.

Ok, I will stop babbling now and go to bed.

[drippingwet]

Thanks for your effort.

Firstly, when I mentioned niggles with the parry - wether to retreat etc. I dindn't mean I have a problem with distance, I just meant when's the right time to retreat/half-retreat/stand still.

I'm about 6ft, maybe add 1inch, young and therefore generally fit and fast. Very willing to study the subject very hard, as you might realise. I can keep good distance. I've been told I have a never ending lunge.

Weaknesses - currently getting about 5 mins coaching a week (if lucky)!!! I mean that's the way it seems to go in most clubs (terrible) and I think I'll have to go 1:1 very soon.

I don't feel I'm learning fast enough. I have the enthusiam and the determination, but I feel like I'm held back by lack of coaching. Fencing Isn't so much about beating the opponent for me, you can beat the opponent with luck. I want to perfect the true sport, and not just mess about. Perhaps for me its more about beating myself than beating my opponent. After all, opponents come and go, but you will always be you.

I've just turned 20. I'm going to university next year. If its medicine then I might have to put fencing on the sideline indefinately. But if its my second choice, then there still might be scope for achievement. My coach says if I went to London, I could be in the top 50 in the next few years. World Champs/Cups etc are always a dream i.e. you just might buck the trend that comes about from not starting so young (I started at 18). But the 'greater chance' goal for me would be seriously high placements at the national champs by my late 20s - what do you think, higher or lower or couldn't say?

[Boo Boo]

Firstly, when I mentioned niggles with the parry - wether to retreat etc. I dindn't mean I have a problem with distance, I just meant when's the right time to retreat/half-retreat/stand still.

Yes, but whether you retreat (etc.etc.) depends on the distance and what your opponent is doing. You want to take the parry as late as possible (without mal-parrying), but you don't want to get rooted to the ground and you don't want to be predictable.

I'm about 6ft, maybe add 1inch, young and therefore generally fit and fast. Very willing to study the subject very hard, as you might realise. I can keep good distance. I've been told I have a never ending lunge.

Height is good. Youth does not necessarily equal fit and fast: I am fitter and faster than many boys who are 10/15 years younger than me... Have you taken any fitness tests recently (beep test, cooper test?)? Do you run? Dop you go to the gym? Do you do resistance training? Do you do any core stability work?

I'm about 6ft, maybe add 1inch, young and therefore generally fit and fast. Very willing to study the subject very hard, as you might realise. I can keep good distance. I've been told I have a never ending lunge.

Weaknesses - currently getting about 5 mins coaching a week (if lucky)!!! I mean that's the way it seems to go in most clubs (terrible) and I think I'll have to go 1:1 very soon.

That is not a weakness in you, that is a circumstance. What are your weaknesses - am not suggesting that you post them here, just that you make a written list for yourself... (and go through them with your coach - which you chould be doing already, especially if he is fencing you).

I don't feel I'm learning fast enough. I have the enthusiam and the determination, but I feel like I'm held back by lack of coaching. Fencing Isn't so much about beating the opponent for me, you can beat the opponent with luck. I want to perfect the true sport, and not just mess about. Perhaps for me its more about beating myself than beating my opponent. After all, opponents come and go, but you will always be you.

Ok, what is your weekly fencing training? Do I understand that you don't get any 1-to-1 coaching at the moment? What are your financial and mobility circumstances (ok, am not looking for an answer) and what are you willing to give up to achieve better results at fencing?

If you want to achieve good things in fencing, then you need to have proper coaching: at LEAST a couple of 15 minute 1-to-1 coaching sessions a week. How many times do you fence a week? You should be looking to fence about 3 or 4 times a week at good clubs? How far away from Manchester/Salle Kiss are you - if I lived in your area, I would be looking to go there...

To be honest, talking for hours on fencing forums is no subsititute for good coaching and lots of experience.

I'm just 20. I'm going to university next year. If its medicine then I might have to put fencing on the sideline indefinately.

Why? I know a number of fencers who will be, are or have been medical students. Tristan Lane - currently ranked no. 9 in GB for men's Epee - is a medical student. He still finds time to compete and do some training.

Medicine may be very tough to study, but everybody needs other interests to keep themselves going (otherwise you could end up very dull and or burnt out...)

But if its my second choice, then there still might be scope for achievement.

Of course there is! I only started fencing when I got to university (at 18): I am now a member of the British squad, have medalled at the Senior British Championships, competed at the Commonwealth Championships (helping the team to get the gold medal), and competed at a number of World Cups and the World Championships. I did all of this by my late 20s. Might have achieved more if my early training was more focussed (many coaches don't take adult beginners seriously...)

But you need to focus your training: as I have said several times in this thread (and Zelda has backed up) - you need to set your goals, evaluate yourself, identify the difference between your goals and where you are now, then work out what you need to do progress towards these goals...

Boo

[drippingwet]

1. Well I haven't had any tests, but at a recent medical careers seminar, my lung capacity (or something) was nearly off the scale.

2. I currently fence 5 hours a week, with 5 mins 1:1 coaching.

3. Manchester is quite a journey and I don't drive yet!!!

Alongside normal sessions, I plan to get a 1 hour 1:1 coaching session each month, until I start uni (possibly in London).

So correct me if I'm wrong but in these 1:1 sessions, I should:
- discuss my goals.
- Try to establish strength and weaknesses and work on them.
- build tactics around my strengths.

Thoughts?

[Boo Boo]

1. Well I haven't had any tests, but at a recent medical careers seminar, my lung capacity (or something) was nearly off the scale.

Lung capacity is good (I also have a very good lung capacity - about 30% larger than most women - not bad for an asthmatic...), but it is only a very small measure of fitness and says nothing about stamina, speed, strength or power (all of which are vital to fencing).

You haven't said what other exercise you do outside of fencing.

2. I currently fence 5 hours a week, with 5 mins 1:1 coaching.

5 hours of fencing is not bad - providing it is used smartly. 5 mins 1:1 coaching is almost useless: by the time your coach has "warmed you up" it is time to "warm you down"!!! Out of interest, what would a typical 5 minutes cover (is it just him chatting to you?)?

3. Manchester is quite a journey and I don't drive yet!!!

Ah, this is where the test of how keen you are (and financial resources) comes into play? Have you even looked into going to Manchester? Can you get a lift from someone else? There may well be other fencers from your area going to Manchester: could you get a lift from them? Can you convince a fencing friend (with a car!) that doing some extra training in Manchester would be a good idea? Can you get a train to Manchester?

It will be no different when you go to London: although there are a number of very good foil clubs there, you would be surprisingly lucky if one happened to be on your doorstep.

Alongside normal sessions, I plan to get a 1 hour 1:1 coaching session each month, until I start uni (possibly in London).

If you can only afford an hour (£20?), then split it into four weekly 15 minute sessions: this will get some momentum going and allow you to build on things week to week...

So correct me if I'm wrong but in these 1:1 sessions, I should:
- discuss my goals.
- Try to establish strength and weaknesses and work on them.
- build tactics around my strengths.

No, you need to get a relationship with your coach. If I was you, I would arrange to have a chat (free!) with him (maybe over a coffee/pint) to discuss your coaching with him. Say that you are serious about wanting to get better and what his help to do so. You want to start having private lessons with him, but want to sort out your goals and direction with him first... (so that you BOTH know where you are heading and have a plan of how).

You should do an exercise before your chat with your coach:
- write down your goals (set some realistic goals for this year, but maybe have some longer term goals too).
- write a self-assessment of yourself, for example:
- evaluate your strength, speed, stamina, skill, suppleness and Psychology (rate yourself out of 10 for each of these)
- indentify your fencing strengths and weaknesses.
- write down where you need to be to achieve your goals
- write down what you think you need to do to get from where you (self evaluation) and where you want to be (to achieve your goals).

Your coach should be able to help insure that your goals are realistic, your self-evaluation is honest (especially since he fences you...) and help flesh out your ideas for where you need to be and how to get there (this will include strategy, tactics, refing or learning new technical skills, developing yourself as an allround athlete etc.). He should also be impressed that you have done this and are obviously taking things seriously...

Your coach should be happy to do this with you, if he is not, then I would question his dedication to you as a fencer (if you are going to pay for private lessons, in particular, he should be interested in your achievements and not just his pay cheque...).

Boo

[fencerontheline]

Boo- you've got it right.

Drippingwet- I don't know your whole situation, but from what I see... what you need to do now is get a lot more one on one coaching (I'd reccomend 4 half-hour sessions a week- it'd be 40 pounds or 80US$- which is a bargain compared to the 180$ I'm paying a week...).

And, you need to stop asking us questions about fencing and start asking your coach.

There are many ways to do things when you fence... and it's probably better that you let your coach decide these things as opposed to the f.net members. Your coach should have a vision of how you'd like to fence... and let them act upon that vision in order to make you into a better fencer.

~M.D.

[drippingwet]

Thanks. I'll find out about trains to Manchester - its about 2 hours away by car. A few times a week and its a lot of travelling, but I would be prepared to do it.

I had a really good coach at my first club, but he was the only thing worth going for, because it was mostly kids and beginner adults. I moved on to bigger and better clubs. He's really only coach who I developed anything like a good coaching relationship, rather than simply a social relationship. It would be good to have a good coaching relationship with someone, because I am serious and wouldn't let them down. There's a couple of coaches who I could get 1:1 off - but there's only one that actually spars with me, and I don't get the impression that he'd want to spend lots of time with me/anyone without getting paid. Talking in the club... well there isn't much time for it. Anyway, these 5 minute coaching sessions, are common to many of th clubs I've been to, just consist mainly of focusing on one particular action, but there's not much time to really perfect it with the coach(understatement).

[fencerontheline]

To become a better fencer, it's essential to invest some money into coaching. A good coaching relationship is the relatiopnship you have with your coach when you're not taking a less: Does your coach give you advice by the strip- does your coach correct you while doing dummywork or footwork... ect ect...

[Boo Boo]

Thanks. I'll find out about trains to Manchester - its about 2 hours away by car. A few times a week and its a lot of travelling, but I would be prepared to do it.

I thought that you were Sheffield area - is that REALLY that far from Manchester?

I had a really good coach at my first club, but he was the only thing worth going for, because it was mostly kids and beginner adults. I moved on to bigger and better clubs. He's really only coach who I developed anything like a good coaching relationship, rather than simply a social relationship.

If he is a good coach, then he may still be your best choice for 1-to-1 coaching.... A good coach doesn't need to fence you to be a good coach to you. I rarely/never fence any of my (three) coaches. You don't even need to be attending a coach's club to get private lessons off of them.

So you could consider using your old coach - if you can find a time and venue to suit both of you...

There's a couple of coaches who I could get 1:1 off - but there's only one that actually spars with me, and I don't get the impression that he'd want to spend lots of time with me/anyone without getting paid.

A lot of coaches are like that unless:
- you are obviously very talented and they see that they will get a lot of reflected glory off of you
- they are one of those few lovely people who see their ability to coach as a gift that they want to share with others

Most coaches are doing it professionally and are running it like any other business... to make money.

It is quite amazing how paying coaches for private lessons can completely change their outlook and enthusiasm!

Anyway, these 5 minute coaching sessions, are common to many of th clubs I've been to, just consist mainly of focusing on one particular action, but there's not much time to really perfect it with the coach(understatement).

Most clubs I go to, the standard (included in the club fees) lesson time would be 15 minutes (but at least 10). If coaches are stretched, then clubs run a rota system (either "first come first serve" or "every other week" or similar). 5 minutes is completely abismal!

Personally, I only have private lessons now - 30 minutes to an hour of 1-to-1 (even 30 minutes seems to go too quickly sometimes...) normally 3 times a week. One of people who coaches me doesn't charge for his lessons or travelling to competitions to coach and support, but he is just a mad, amazing person and I always let him know how much I appreciate his time.

fencerontheline is very correct - you are asking too many strategy/technical questions on the forum, that you should be asking your coach instead: we don't know you or your fencing, so can't be very constructive. What we can do is try to get you to be realistic about your training and try to push you in the right direction that way...

Boo

[drippingwet]

When you say goals, is it always about competitive goals?

Strength - I'm not saying I'm weak, but why do you mention strength in a game like fencing?

Thanks.

[Boo Boo]

When you say goals, is it always about competitive goals?

Normally yes, but you can have other goals as well (although these will often drop out as "actions" from what you need to do to achieve your competitive goals - i.e. "work on smaller steps beacuse often get caught on preparation...).

Your goals for this season could include:
- making L64 (or winning a DE) at a major open
- making the top 200 in the GB Men's Foil ranking list
- making the L8 at your county championships
- making L4 at your club championships

That sort of thing. What I am stating are just ideas - you need to decide what is realistically ambitious for you. There is no point setting your goals too low (because you will easily achieve them), but don't be over ambitious (otherwise you might become very disappointed if you don't achieve them). Be reasonable and revisit your goals regularly - you can always refine your goals and add to them.

Strength - I'm not saying I'm weak, but why do you mention strength in a game like fencing?

Fencing is a sport and not just a game and requires athleticism:
- to get acceleration from your legs for a fast lunge/recovery/etc, you need explosive muscle power which comes from strength - otherwise your lunge tends to be gravity alone. That's why many fencers do resistance/weight training with their legs (leg press, leg extensions, leg curls, squats, calf raises etc....)
- fencers want strong fingers for fast beats/parries/disengages and flicks. You'd also expect strong triceps, biceps and whatever else to support this.
- ideally you want a stable platform to allow your hand to work independently of your legs, so you need good core stability (a la Lorenzo Taddei...). So you want to work on planks, oblique planks, chest press, wobble board, ab curls, back extensions and lots of other things that I can't think what they are called...)

Agility and speed are good to work on because you can then react quickly and change direction quickly and effortlessly.

The more supple you are, the less likely you are to suffer injury.

Fitness and stamina are also important: the fitter you are, the harder you can train (and the most that you will get out of your training). You will also be able to survive into the later stages of a competition: in a competition, the better you do the harder the fights (so you need to be fitter to win these harder fights).

Psychology is also important: you need a winners attitude - focussed on winning and not put off by anything, but - if you loose - to be able to learn from that defeat (so as not to repeat it next time).

Boo

[davtsung]

Your enthusiasm for our sport is truly admirable, though it sounds as if your quest for improving yourself is beginning to actually hamper your development or at least your enjoyment of the sport. I understand that you do have ambitions of competing on an international level, but I truly believe that will come more naturally with time if you maintian an attitude where you are receptive to learning and enjoy fencing. It does seem you don;t have enough quality 1-on-1 time with your coach and that is unfortunate, and I think many of us have been there. Try not to focus so much on strategy cause it seems that you know quite a bit about it already. Try implementing a strategy gradually. For instance, it took me one good year to understand how to throw a pointe en line for it work against different types of opposition, resulting in countless bouts of losing to my club mates, but I'm more comfortable now with what I can do with that tactic through practice, and not theory. The theory would explode my head if I kept thinking about it.

[mackillian]

Are you having fun?

[jBirch]

Ah yes, tactics. My favourite area.

First off, get your technical aspects down and work on your relationship with your coach. Boo et al is spot on in that respect.

However, you asked for specific tactical advice and I'll go against what everyone has said so far and give you some. First point, if you have to ask when to parry, when to retreat, when to attack etc... you are failing in your tactical game. Set your opponent up so that you know what they are going to do.

This is the crux of higher level fencing. Two techniques that you can work on.

First, call the attack. This technique involves enticing your opponent to attack to something that you control. Like Pavlov and his dogs, you teach your opponent something every time you fence. If they get good results, they will want to repeat the action. If they get bad results, they won't want to do that again. As an example, at a beginner level, open a target and make it really enticing. Then, when you want your opponent to attack, half-open and parry. You know the attack is coming so when to parry is easy. At a higher level, fall for that feint but know that the disengage and counter-disengage is coming. Or get your opponent into a deep tactical game (A attack, B parry/ripose, A counter-parry riposte, B counter-counter-parry/riposte, etc...) and hit them with a simple attack. Other ways to do the same thing are to retreat to the end of the piste and wait for your opponent. Attack with something that you know is going to fail then counter-parry their riposte and riposte back. If you retreat after every opponent advance, try AIP, then parry, then retreat. Beats often lead to counter beats. Lots of ways to teach your opponent.

The second technique is called freezing the mind. Feints, unpredictability and tempo changes are important for this. What you do is cause your opponent to stop their action, whatever it is, and do something reflexive or hesitate to think. If you have a defensive opponent, throwing a feint out during their advance will cause them to stop and search for the parry. If you have an aggressive opponent, throwing a feint out will cause them to stick their arm out and/or attack w/w/o lunge. Since you know the response, the counter to it is easy. Disengage the parry, parry the attack and attack the hesitation.

On the coaching front, 5 minutes is a waste of your time, while 1 hour+ is a waste of your coach's time. If you are working on technical problems then 1:1 coaching is prime. This is where you work on instilling reflex to competitive problems. Work your 4 parry-riposte, for example. Work your footwork, etc... Then go home and practice your fencing homework (you do get fencing homework, don't you??) If you are working on tactical problems then you need piste-side coaching at tournaments. And you need to be going to a lot of tournaments.

On the F.NET front, personally, I like it when my students ask others for theory help. It's a hard area and one that spawns ideas. Fencing is a wonderful, fullfilling sport and it goes so deep that you can't help but ask questions. When my students come back to me with thought out tactical and technical questions I'm overjoyed. Yes, sometimes they come back with garbage and it takes some time for them to figure out that it is garbage, but they always are the better for having gone down that detour. They see other fencers doing the same thing and laugh. They buckle down to what matters because they've got the experience with what DOESN'T work. Personally, I find intelligent, articulate and inquisitive students a treasure. But that's just me.

Hope this helps.