how far past is "past"?

[Kodiak Kid]

The good book says: "When a fencer goes past the opponent during a bout, the Referee must immediately call 'Halt' and replace the competitors in the positions which they occupied before the passing took place." (t.21)
So the question is, "How far past is past?" The big toe of the leading foot? The heel of the trailing foot? Somewhere in between? Is this open to local interpretation and if so, what is common?

[Blade]

To go pass your opponent is generally a body length so it would be if you were standing back to back.

Hope this helps

[Moonitic]

I was told that it was the moment the shoulders cross the plane.

[attila]

Hi Kodiak

The big book o' rules used to say as soon as the knees crossed the ref should call halt etc. But in practice ( tournamenting) it depends on the comfort level of the ref. Some get really freaked out if you get too close and they have a hard time following the action( right of way). Others are patient enough to try to follow the action and enventually hope for a single light. So it depends. Also on close quarter fencing when a fencer passes the ref will give the defender ONE action on a riposte even as the attacker PASSES, as long as the ref deems it a single continous action ( one beat of fencing time).

[Blade]

Kodiak kid

I would take Attila's reply as the most accurate.

[oiuyt]

A slight clarification to Attila's post. Although Attila doesn't say it this way, many people learn this as "the defender (person being passed) is allowed one riposte on a passing action" which is wrong. When being passed you are allowed to finish an action STARTED before the passing occurs even if the hit lands after the pass.

This could be your third riposte (or replacement) as long as it starts before the pass, likewise the first riposte could be too late and not allowed (this could be true even without a delay before the riposte).

Another thing to note is that in passing situations the fencer BEING passed is allowed to finish the action in progress but the fencer PASSING must have landed the touch before passing occurs. In theory there could be an epee double light with only one touch being awarded in this case (similar to the situations where one of the fencers crosses the lateral boundary with both feet).

-B

[attila]

Oiuyt

Excellent clarification!

[Kodiak Kid]

So according to your posts, for which I thank you very much, there is quite a bit of discretion being applied by the Referee, and on further contemplation I can see why there would be. The Referee is going to be watching for ROW, covering target, shoulder alignment, C-o-C, and all the other safety related things on his list of duties but in a much more confined space. And probably at an accelerated tempo as well. It would be tempting to bail out on this situation and call the halt before any hits have taken place but... What if everything is clean? There has to be a line somewhere.

[oiuyt]

Kodiak-
As long as the weapons can be wielded properly and (in foil and sabre) the director can follow the action (for ROW purposes) there shouldn't be a halt until the fencers have passed. What Atilla pointed out is that some referees will call this halt just because the fencing gets close. A GOOD referee will be able to allow this to continue longer because he/she will be able to follow the action longer. In ANY case, once the fencers have passed there is a halt. What's passing is a bit variable, usually front shoulders or front knees or equivalent.

Some referees take the easy way out and call a halt much too soon. As you point out there has to be a line somewhere. Referees should never just bail on their responsibility and call a halt because they think that they are about to get confused. As a referee, if you've lost the action, call halt. Fine, that's in the rules. Don't call halt just because the fencers have gotten close together and it's going to be a harder call to make once they do finally hit each other. This is something that is hard to learn and hard to put into practice, but it's also key in seperating the adequate referees from the good ones.

-B