The Vexed Mask Issue.

[Cyranox11]

I have been thinking about the infamous Milanoli mask at Worlds. I have decided that I think that it is a much better idea to have interesting, painted masks, rather than clear ones. After all an interestingly painted mask could be more expressive, exciting and contraversial than anyone's expression etc.

Also, I am reminded of Formula 1 where helmets are what identify the drivers as individuals (the team livery is identical but helmets are individually designed and painted). The same could be done in fencing. The team colours on uniforms are not striking enough to differentiate fencers (and fencers from the same team are VERY difficult to tell apart) and I prefer the look of the white uniform with flashes on the arms and legs, the mask is ALWAYS visible and readily identifiable (the lexan would not help spectators as the light reflects off it hiding faces and the visible face is too small anyway). So I would suggest the fie allow, nay encourage, masks with pictures, designs faces etc painted on them (this should not be compulsory though) and see what spectators and tv people feel about it.

Right, I will hunker down and don my asbestos suit now!

[MikeHarm]

I wouldn't have a problem with cool looking painted masks with dragons or martial arts sort of things, but in this age of advertising creeping into everything, I think if we went through with I could see a tournament filled with people with Pepsi logo's and such painted on their masks which is a bit disturbing. On the other hand, maybe that would be a new way to pay for your gear and travelling expenses.

Mike

[Konstantinos]

IMHO, i think the real question here would be if we really want to move that far away from the roots of this sport. It was a "gentleman's" sport <I use the quotes to get the mean of the word across, not the gender...i still cant get used to using words like "gentleperson's" >.

To allow differences to an extent is one thing, but to start wearing masks such as Milanoli's is to remove the purpose of much of our rules, many of which seem to be based upon a code of "honor" between fencers. An "I respect you on the piste, you respect me" type of agreement. To come out dressed like a clown and have one painted on your mask would be to say "I know i have you beat, there is no point to this, im just gonna have fun with you".

Do we really want to take the sport into such a new direction?

However, if that is the only way to save the sport and make it "bigger" TV-wise, is it a necissary evil or is it even worth saving if only to corrupt it into wholely something else that only resembles the original.

I would see nothing wrong with maybe a team logo on the sides of the Mask though. More like a football/baseball helmet. there to differentiate and add color, more than to affect the opponent. If they are in good taste of course.

*Kos steps down off of his podium and relinquishes the mic

-Konstantinos

[soos]

fencing=amateur

rules were saying : only 1 trade mark allow on ur whole suit (including mask).

and i hate the idea of painting the face of the mask, cose in fencing u always look at the face of ur oppenent, so that nothing must be put there !

if u want u can put thing on the sides, but not on the face. I definitly against that.

[soos]

errrrr about the Tv stuff, i m french, so if one country have to have big tv about fencing, its france : well, i think the audience would be smaller watching how fencing it going, with those clowns masks and all that ****ing stuff.

really, thats not a way to make it a tv-wider sport ... fencing is fencing, u could turn it into a larger sport if u introduce some ball into it with teams+ grass field, but it wont be fencing anymore !

i guess that ppl look at fencing because its fencing, and because it s not one of those ****ing sports only leaded by money !! fencing still has honor/rules etc... not like those morons from the NHL who do not shake hands after the game : thats called professional drift, would u like fencing going that way ? i dont !

[lochinvar]

While I agree that we don't want to alter the fundamental nature of the sport, I have always been an advocate of adding more color to it.

I think colored lames, colored uniforms, and colored masks would all be welcome additions--with a few caveats.

I have no problem with painted masks, either philosophically or in fencing against them. When I first began fencing (back in the AFLA days), we used to paint abstract designs on our masks at the club just for fun. We never could use them in competition, of course, but they were fun, nonetheless.

But the clown mask in question was DISTRACTING. I would hate to fence against such a sight. I think that falls under the heading of "taking unfair advantage".

So, I think that mask designs would have to be abstract designs only, and no garish colors. Probably require some sort of qualification, like the weapons, at any tournaments. Or can be prequalified. Or something.

The other problem would be the one that Mike brought up, that being the danger of turning into walking billboards, like NASCAR drivers (what a ridiculous-looking lot--I think, anyway). And the temptation to do just that would always be present, seeing that this is not really a 'money' sport, and expenses can mount up alarmingly.

So corporate sponsorship or advertising of any kind would have to be controlled, or prohibited. I'm sorry, I just don't want to see a Nike swoosh opposing me when I fence.

So, there's my two cent's worth. Color, kept tasteful and within reason, can only help the spectator appeal of the sport.

[ 11-06-2001: Message edited by: lochinvar ]

[Boo Boo]

Don't know if I am weird (or if it is typical for a foilist), but I don't focus on my opponant's head during a fight at all: I focus on their hand/guard, front arm and lame and the distance they are away from me.

Okay, I am aware whether their legs are moving and in which direction and am aware about what they are doing with their head in relation to their body (don't go for chest if they duck), but I don't look at their head/face.

This is why people wearing masks with clear plastic visors don't bother me (although I thought that they might) - since I don't look at their eyes/face in the first place.

Boo

[Konstantinos]

Originally posted by soos:
<STRONG>errrrr about the Tv stuff, i m french, so if one country have to have big tv about fencing, its france : well, i think the audience would be smaller watching how fencing it going, with those clowns masks and all that ****ing stuff.

really, thats not a way to make it a tv-wider sport ... fencing is fencing, u could turn it into a larger sport if u introduce some ball into it with teams+ grass field, but it wont be fencing anymore !

i guess that ppl look at fencing because its fencing, and because it s not one of those ****ing sports only leaded by money !! fencing still has honor/rules etc... not like those morons from the NHL who do not shake hands after the game : thats called professional drift, would u like fencing going that way ? i dont !</STRONG>

hehe, i cant agree more. Id stop fencing at competitions where people lost all honor and rules.

Now as for a game on grass with a ball and swords...hmm...you may have a great idea on your hands there Pitch it to an Executive...it could be the next XFL

&lt;For anyone not in the US that doesnt know the XFL, it was an attempt, put forth by the wrestling community, to remove what little honor there was in American Football, and make a more violent sport with new camera angles and crazy stuff like that. After the first game, it BOMBED! and was forever buried. A possible outcome of fencing should it change too much and go overly public with mass changes....could scare off the people that WOULD have come on their own.&gt;

-Konstantinos

[ 11-06-2001: Message edited by: Konstantinos ]

[BarryTice]

Cyranox11 --

That has to be the absolutely most stupid idea I've ever heard!

Actually, I didn't mean that. I just hate for a perfectly good asbestos suit to go to waste!

Personally, I think a little levity on the strip isn't such a bad thing. When I'm out there fencing, I am usually having a great time and have been known to laugh out loud upon receiving an especially good hit. (This can be very disconcerting for whoever just hit me.)

Of course, this attitude of putting enjoyment ahead of victory probably contributes a great deal to my hard-earned "U" rating. But y'know, I'm perfectly content with that.

-- Barry Tice

[tsalyards]

Colored uniforms and decorated masks is an absolutely awful idea and it makes my stomache feel as if I might vomit. The all white uniform is a simple tradition, and many might argue that tradition is one of the only things that fencing has going for it. Adding clown like junk to our sport will not aid in boosting its appeal.

-Tad Salyards

[Inquartata]

What if we all start wearing colors, and plumes, and flags, and logos, and otherwise wind up in the place where we will undoubtedly wind up if the "thin end of the wedge" is given purchase...and it DOESN'T attract spectator interest or TV revenues? Then we've turned our back on tradition in favor of lurid novelty for nothing.

Inqy no like!

[Cyranox11]

Yo,
Responses pretty much as I expected.
Some thoughts though: Yes given the alarming amount of sponsorship money that is flooding into our sport and threatening the viability of small sports such as Formula 1 and tiny football clubs like Man Utd's survival at the expense of fencing I can see that your concerns regarding fencers becoming walking billboards is PERFECTLY legitimate. Oh my God Tiger Woods may lose his Nike sponsorship to that HUGE celebrity of our sport Brice Guyart (I mean his poster is on every high school girl's wall from Arizona to Australia already).
Maybe some inflow of money (especially in countries like mine where sponsorship goes to rugby, cricket, soccer and not much else) making us more sponsor friendly can actually only be a help.
Seriously, I really like the fact that Milanoli gets up people's noses it makes things interesting, however I dont think too many people would go to the same extreme: most would go for an abstarct design, a variation of a flag or maybe a design representing an animal or similar. If this distracts you then you should consider how much you are concentrating on wanting to win in the first place...
I agree re the multi-coloured uniforms, I think they are often garish and mostly poorly designed yet a flag 'flash' on the arms/legs (especially if cleverly done eg Italy's 'italia' logo) can look VERY classy.
Soos, I am also not sure that changing the masks in any way will make a huge difference to the TV audience, but I think the painted masks will fly further than the lexan ones...

Aaaargh this asbestos suit seems to get hotter every time I climb back in...
ho-hum

[swordsen]

I think it is a every good idea. and I have been saying that for years, but don't expect anyone high up to listen to us very often.
As for tradition, i am all in favor of tradition, but they chnage, they always have. Just recently on RSF the basic rules for fencing in 1891 were posted. Dark jackets were required so the chalk marks could be seen clearly. So much for always wear white.
I wouldn't mind logos either. If someone wants to pay me to put their design on my mask, Thank You Very Much.
Ever noticed that the German team's patch is the Mercedes-Benz logo?????

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by Cyranox11:
<STRONG>I dont think too many people would go to the same extreme: most would go for an abstarct design, a variation of a flag or maybe a design representing an animal or similar. </STRONG>

I dunno. Considering how competitive fencers are, I think it might not take much to start them vying to see who could get the farthest up the most noses; to be the most outrageous, the most "colorful"---not unlike pro wrestlers!

Originally posted by swordsen:<STRONG>Dark jackets were required so the chalk marks could be seen clearly. So much for always wear white.</STRONG>

Then they changed it to white when they started using dyes instead of chalk. However, in both cases the color choice was functional, based on technical considerations. No such justifications presently exist to spur further changes. The only reasons being offered up against tradition today are speculative---maybe it'll attract tv revenues, perhaps it'll draw fan interest---or rising out of the cult of "personal expression is paramount everywhere, all the time, in every aspect of life" to which we've somehow become addicted...

[swordsen]

Ah yes prehaps, but it became a tradition for no better reason than that no one thought to change it when they got rid of dyes.
I admit the old spider mand fencer from the PFL was a bit too far out there for even my tastes but a mask like Milanoli's or colored uniforms don't take away from the sport. and who knows, they may add something.

[Inquartata]

Heh, yes, but then, "no one thought to change it" is the genesis of almost all traditions, is it not?

[Cyranox11]

Hi
I just re-read my second post...
I am afraid my sarcasm may have come across as being somewhat scathing or aimed at one or two people please note this is not the case.
I was just trying to be humorous about the sponsorship issue, I was not attacking anyone. If you realised this cool, if not please accept my (belated) apology.

I dont see what is 'ungentlemanly' about wearing a mask that is coloured or has a picture on it! Yes, Milanoli uses 'distracting' movements of his hand, odd footwork and screams, shouts and dances around, I dont have a problem fencing some one who does this. They are more likely expressions of his personality than pre-meditated attempta at cheating. Obry used rather dubious tactics against Fischer in the semis of the Olympics and I felt these were far worse than Milanoli's yes, they were more subtle but maybe thats what makes them worse? They were also far more sinister in that he sought to manipulate the rules of bouting in an unsportsmanlike manner so as to gain an advantage. This is gamesmanship, arguably wrong but not specifically punishable wearing a mask is not quite the same...
Far more disrespectful (imho) is the person who doesnt bother to train, comes on to the piste improperly prepared or with an attitude s/he is not entitled to doesnt bother to do everything they can to win and then complains when they get beaten 5-0 etc. Milanoli trains VERY hard he is fit and has made the sacrifices to get to the point in his career where he can win Worlds. That is hardly disrespectful to his opponents.

On the tradition thing, the uniform colours were legislated because of a technical requirement. Now that the technical requirement in question is no longer applicable, perhaps the ruling should be scrapped. And this from someone who LIKES the look of whites over coloured clothing
Traditions come and go many are invented, re-invented or revived (Eric Hobsbwam has written a brilliant book on this called 'The Invention of Tradition').
Often 'traditions' are invented so as to legitimise actions or at worst to subject people to a set of rules (eg the pacifying of Scotland from the mid 18th century to the 19th century).
I would say that traditions tend to stifle people and progress. People who hide behind tradition tend to be afraid of change and prefer the stability of tradition. BUT change is exciting and the best thing about change is that once change is allowed if it doesnt work you can always change back. The point is to be fluid, embrace a brave new world LIVE!!!

I dont think too many people would be rushing out to get themselves demonic clown masks just because the fie allowed it: I (who am in favour of the idea) would stick to my single solid coloured mask (I currently use a black mask but I like the look of the blue and yellow ones on offer)and white kit until forced by someone to change as I prefer the look for me,the one concession I am prepared to make is a tasteful national flag or club badge etc on the arm/leg of the uniform, but those who like other looks should be allowed to change if they want.

Right I am handing the soap box over...

[ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: Cyranox11 ]

[ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: Cyranox11 ]

[ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: Cyranox11 ]

[swordsen]

Yes indeed, taht is the origin of most traditions. People do it and keep doing it without ever asking why.
10-15 years ago people would have thrown fits about the blue and red masks that are out now. and colored socks??? Blasphemy!!
Now those are accepted. The masks with designs will arrive in real use fairly soon.
There should be a registry of designs like the old coat of arms and everyone get their own.....
Heraldry, the resurection of another grand old tradition.....

[Konstantinos]

Originally posted by swordsen:
<STRONG>Yes indeed, taht is the origin of most traditions. People do it and keep doing it without ever asking why.
10-15 years ago people would have thrown fits about the blue and red masks that are out now. and colored socks??? Blasphemy!!
Now those are accepted. The masks with designs will arrive in real use fairly soon.
There should be a registry of designs like the old coat of arms and everyone get their own.....
Heraldry, the resurection of another grand old tradition.....</STRONG>

ooo....return of heraldry...sounds almost too good to be true
Dunno if thats a good idea or just my historian/romantic-fantasy side coming out

[HilandDoug]

Is this a good time to reintroduce my request for plaid knickers (or fencing pants for you Brits) representing my family tartan? I know I couldn't fence competition in a kilt (pictures coming soon on my web site), but the plaid knickers would be fun, and that's what I'm there for.

Painted masks? You could make a rule that no sponsorship was to go on the mask, only personal identification marks or themes. Whatya think?