Refereeing question

[JackSparrow]

As I was taught, when you are refereeing if you make a decision you have to stick by it. I was just wondering if there is ever an exception to that rule. For example, it's the last hit in a DE match (amazing how many wrong calls come at 14-14), your decision causes uproar with the spectators. The losing fencer can't believe the call and the winning fencer looks equally shocked. Surely this kind of extreme reaction means the ref has obviously made a mistake. Does the ref ever have cause to go back on their original descision in the face of common sense?

[annacattiva]

Nope!

Once that call's made, it's over.

[MikeHarm]

I've seen it happen before, I don't like it at all though.

[hpfencing]

As a referee you must STICK TO YOUR GUNS or other fencers, coaches and referees will try to "bully" you into changing the situation. It's hard but you must stick to your guns or stop refereeing altogether. No one will ask you to referee if you change your calls, it's just NOT done.

Bottom line suggestion for you, If you are not sure on the call, DON'T MAKE THE CALL, simply throw it out call it "unclear action" or "together/no clear right of way" and go on.

I don't know the specifics of this bout in question but that only way one can be over-ruled is if you mis-interpret/quote a rule and that happens at the bout committee level. Unless a fencer request a appeal to the bout committee then you MUST sitck to your guns.

The action IS what-ever the referee sees it as, no matter if it's what really happened or not.

Hang in there, looks like you did the right thing. The job of referee is many times un-fun but it's worse if you try and change calls and second guess yourself to please the crowd.

[Craig]

You stick with your decision.

If you don't, never referee again. You will not have the respect of anyone.

Craig

[Insipiens]

In some World Cup competitions (or is it just the world championships or Grand Prix?) I think they are supposed to have television replays available for the referee to use before making his decision. This might make it less likely you would get the decision wrong in the first place. did they have this for the olympic team foil finals?

[sabreur]

Bottom line suggestion for you, If you are not sure on the call, DON'T MAKE THE CALL, simply throw it out call it "unclear action" or "together/no clear right of way" and go on.

This is excellent advice--if you don't know what happened, don't make something up. Force the fencers to show you what they are doing.

MR

[telkanuru]

The action IS what-ever the referee sees it as, no matter if it's what really happened or not.

My friends and I postulated the following circumstance: fencers jockying, etc. ref says, Halt, touch left/right. when questioned as to why, s/he says "the light went off", which it most certainly did not. However, it's what the ref saw, so you can't question the call


I think there are much easier ways to cheat if you're a ROW weapon ref though

[Capt. Slo-mo]

I have seen referees reverse themselves at the NAC level for obvious mistakes. Most frequently (in saber): two attacks, ref calls simultaneous, but only one light has gone off. Pandemonium ensues. In several cases, either another ref or the no lighter's coach agrees, lame test is done, and point is awarded properly.

This is distinctly different frm giving in to bullying by the coaches over ROW calls, though.

[sabreur]

I have seen referees reverse themselves at the NAC level for obvious mistakes. Most frequently (in saber): two attacks, ref calls simultaneous, but only one light has gone off. Pandemonium ensues. In several cases, either another ref or the no lighter's coach agrees, lame test is done, and point is awarded properly.

This is distinctly different frm giving in to bullying by the coaches over ROW calls, though.

Simultaneous isn't a wrong call just because only one light goes on--the correct call is simultaneous attack, A valid, B invalid, touch for A. Assuming there is no technical fault.

MR

[oiuyt]

I think he meant a call of simultaneous, followed by not awarding a touch.

Similar situation, call of attack, counter-attack, awards touch to attacker before being made aware that the machine registered only the light for the counter-attack.

Or, in a case I witnessed this past weekend at the World Cup in Louisville, attack, counter-attack, touch for the attack. Both coaches of the attacking fencer immediately pointed out that the attacker had hit off-target. Undoubtedly the other fencer, coach of the other fencer, other spectators would have also jumped in, but the attacker's coaches just got there first.

In any case, situations where the wrong call is inadvertently made due to the referee mis-seeing lights. Nearly every time that I've seen this the referee has believed the generally expressed opinion and reversed him/herself. I have seen at least 1-2 occasions where a referee was adamantly wrong about which lights had been displayed and stuck with the blown call.

-B :)

[Inquartata]

Brad beat me to it, I've seen the same thing---one light, the ref awards to the wrong side, people in both fencers' camps point out the mistake, the ref refuses to admit to being wrong. Not on a matter of judgement or rules but on a mere technical confusion.

[davtsung]

I have never known a director worth his weight in gold who would reverse their decision at 14-14 regardless of whether it was a good or bad call. They must stick to their guns and aplly consistency to their decisions. I'm more peeved at inconsistent rulings than a systematic yet consistent neglection of rules as long as it applies for both fencers.

[Peach]

I've seen some high-level bouts decided at 14-14 by a bad call (gold medals, national). The referee knew immediately it was a bad call in each case, and lost sleep over it, but did not reverse it. The call was made.

I always figure if I lose a bout 14-15 on a bad call, it was my fault for basically letting it be decided on a coin flip. If I'm ahead by enough to demonstrate I'm winning on superior ability rather than random chance, I've really won the bout.

[hpfencing]

I always figure if I lose a bout 14-15 on a bad call, it was my fault for basically letting it be decided on a coin flip. If I'm ahead by enough to demonstrate I'm winning on superior ability rather than random chance, I've really won the bout.

I agree 100%

[Purple Fencer]

One thing I was taught back in the 80's..."if in doubt, throw it out."

If you're sure of the call, MAKE the call and stick to it.

I've had situations where one coach thought the call was botched. Middle fo the bout, usually. You have to just ignore the peanut gallery and put the fencers on guard...you're there to apply the rules, not hold someone's hand.

And something Derek Cotton says in his clinics....you have to NOT care who wins.

[fluidfencer]

Just to emphasize the points being made...

When being observed by an FOC official for a higher rating, a key consideration is how you respond under pressure in difficult bouts/circumstances. You are expected to know the rules, but can you do when the stakes are very high (and people are yelling at you)?

Side note...

Bill Oliver did a referee clinic/test for us. One point he made was that it is important to learn and USE the appropriate hand gestures when refereeing. In addition to being the right thing to do, he said it goes a LONG way toward enhancing your credibility on the strip. Based on what I have seen, that is very true. Thanks Bill... AGAIN.

[Mo]

Personally I like Terrance Lasker as a ref. I've seen him stand there with his arms crossed after an action trying to decide who got the point. Usually he will simply throw his hands up in the air and says, "I don't know."
He says, "en guarde" and continues the bout.
I sincerely respect that man.

[annacattiva]

Ha! Speaking of adamantly insisting that lights were/were not lit, I think that one of the completely blown calls that Oiuyt refers to was mine. But it wasn't the action that I blew. Just the whole call!

[oiuyt]

I actually wasn't thinking of any specific actions/calls/occasions (well, other than the specific one I cited from Louisville). I just know that I've seen it at various times in the past.

-B :)