ROW question

[Jas2on]

Perhaps im jsut a bit confused, but i got a ROW question reguarding point in line. In a bout last night, a guy fleched and I retreated fast with my arm fully extended on target. Sudenly I stopped and since my arms were longer than his, he ran into my blade moments before he scored a touch on me. The ref gave him the point. I was under the impression that he would have to beat my blade for him to gain the ROW. Or, since I was retreating, I gave it up?

[Mihail]

It depends on whether or not you were sufficiently out of distance.

[Jas2on]

I figured I was, thats why I stoped the retreat..

[CvilleFencer]

As noted above it depends on if you were outside of his advance/lunge range and rather or not he had began his attack before you threw out your line. Also keep in mind that there is still a lot of confusion about PIL and it is a fairly risky thing to do unless you know the director has his head screwed on right or is friendly to the PIL.

From the way your post sounds if would seem the correct call was made. It sounds as if you saw him preparing his attack and threw out the PIL (which at this point is not a PIL but a counter attack) as a reflex/fear action as he launched his fleche, or at least after he had already established row buy attacking. At least that is how it may have looked to the judge. In that kind of situation you may have more success if you through the PIL while holding your ground. After you have it out for a tempo or so them you can "advance to the rear" without looking like you are running from his attack. If you do not have time to extend your PIL and hold it for a tempo without running away then you most likely could not have established PIL to start with, as he was to close or was "on the march".

Best option, just parry and repost the guy in passing.

[noodle]

if he was fleching and you were retreating and it caused him to essentially run down the strip after you, continuously crossing over, he was in preparation the whole time. you can't hold an attack while crossing over. i'd have to see the action to make the call though its very possible you established and held line.

[Jas2on]

So you can have the ROW while retreating with point in line? Say if he wasn't fleching, just advacing?

[CvilleFencer]

Footwork is in and of itself irrelavent to having PIL. It must be established outside of advange lunge range, but extending the arm and continually threatning upper body target area before for one tempo before the other guy begins his offensive action.

[Katman]

If you establish it in time, yes. It's pretty risky though, because most directors default right of way to the person moving forward (especially if you're retreating).

Best time to establish point in line and have it noticed is when there's a quick break in the action and you want to stall for time or set up some parry-ripostes blah blah blah.

Worst time is when the other fencer is moving towards you.

Edit: Where's the rule that says PIL must be established outside of advance lunge distance? I've heard it the other way too. My impression was that you could establish PIL at any distance from your opponent as long as you did it 'in time' when they weren't attacking (moving forward and waving their arm around).

[achilleus]

Footwork is in and of itself irrelavent to having PIL. It must be established outside of advange lunge range, but extending the arm and continually threatning upper body target area before for one tempo before the other guy begins his offensive action.

This is partly correct.

The PiL can be established at any distance, so long as the opponent is not attacking.

If the opponent is attacking, then to get the line recognized, one must break distance, otherwise the ref can, and most likely will, award the touch to the attacker.

Getting a ref to see a PiL is one of the most difficult things in foil fencing, especially at the lower levels. Personally, since it's such a low percentage shot, I prefer to use it either to slow my opponent down, or if I know the ref's tendencies.

[O_O]

always just assume a 2 light hit will go to the other guy. some refs do know what they are doing, but it is best to rely on your own skill rather than the judge's eye

[ls14evar]

Alot of how Id call something like that is how far you let him fleche before you stopped and got him.

[keith]

The only other thing to add is;

was he crossing his feet as the moved toward you?

If he was then then provided your line was out before he took his last cross step it was your priority and hit.

Mind you good luck finding a club ref paying that much attention to his feet.

If he wasn't crossing feet then it is the ref's judgement as to when the initial action ended and has been pointed out that is very dependent upon individual judgement. Some refs are very strict on the ending of the attack and the beginning of the remise others aren't. But you still have to make your action in the gap between attack and remise to get RoW.

[noodle]

you have to be at least one fencing tempo away in order to establish PIL. this usually implies establishment from advance lunge distance, which is is one tempo. there can be other ways to establish it besides advance lunge distance, though, which is why it all depends on the situation, really.

[CvilleFencer]

Edit: Where's the rule that says PIL must be established outside of advance lunge distance? I've heard it the other way too. My impression was that you could establish PIL at any distance from your opponent as long as you did it 'in time' when they weren't attacking (moving forward and waving their arm around).

IIRC it does not use that phrase in and off itself, but as Noodle mentions does say one full tempo before. I add the advance lunge bit for our students so that even if they do not have a good grasp of temp, if they get the line established outside of advance lunge range they usually have it in time unless there is a march or something similiar going on.

[achilleus]

you have to be at least one fencing tempo away in order to establish PIL. this usually implies establishment from advance lunge distance, which is is one tempo. there can be other ways to establish it besides advance lunge distance, though, which is why it all depends on the situation, really.

It's really semantics. I'm pretty sure we'd call the action the same, but I think it's important to add, it's a tempo before, not away.

Tempo is timing not distance. A one tempo (an adv-lunge) action is one that takes one unit of time.

Really the distance only matters if the opponent is attacking.

[Mihail]

The real fun in saber comes after the PiL has been established, and a decision has to be made on how much of a disengage is actually a disengage. I don't think I've ever heard 2 refs share the same view on the matter.

[noodle]

It's really semantics. I'm pretty sure we'd call the action the same, but I think it's important to add, it's a tempo before, not away.

Tempo is timing not distance. A one tempo (an adv-lunge) action is one that takes one unit of time.

Really the distance only matters if the opponent is attacking.

something can be a unit of time away
time is just as measurable as feet and meters

[Spike327]

If he was indeed crossing his feet each step that he took after the very first one was a remise. If you fleche and you haven't hit by the time your back foot hits the ground your attack failed.

[achilleus]

something can be a unit of time away
time is just as measurable as feet and meters

In some cases yes. However, in this case, it's inaccurate.

For example, you and I are lunge distance apart, standing still. You extend. I then lunge.

Unlikely as that action is (two foil fencers standing still lunge distance apart), the correct call is Line for you.

You established it a tempo ahead, even though we were closer than adv-lunge distance.

[noodle]

In some cases yes. However, in this case, it's inaccurate.

For example, you and I are lunge distance apart, standing still. You extend. I then lunge.

Unlikely as that action is (two foil fencers standing still lunge distance apart), the correct call is Line for you.

You established it a tempo ahead, even though we were closer than adv-lunge distance.

don't want to get into a semantics war, but even after i establish line, you're still a lunge away. it will take you one lunge to get to me. just like if something is an hour away, it will take one hour for it to arrive, or if something is one meter away it will take movement of one meter to arrive.

but whatever. we still would call the action the same way.