Violence and Brutality?

[Bokken]

In preparation for an upcoming tournament this weekend, I've been re-re-re-reading the USFA rulebook and I've noticed something rather interesting. It provides no definition for what constitutes 'violence and brutality,' anywhere I can find (t.87, t.103, t.105, t.120); though there are references to "certain violent and vindictive actions" in t.105 which provide no definition as to what exactly qualifies as 'violent and vindictive.'

My question, therefore: Is there a written definition of 'violence and brutality' that I missed? If not, what do you all consider to be violent and brutal (jokes about 'all saber fencing' need not apply )?

[rant on]
One of my principle reasons for asking this is that last year, one of my students had her thumb broken during a saber bout when her opponent brought the forte of their blade down onto the top of her thumb - no card or warning was issued, nor was my fencer allowed to take injury time to have the thumb looked at until the other fencer (credit where it's due) refused to continue fencing.
I don't know the exact action because I was on the other side of the gym, but in case something like this happens again I'd like to be able to have some rulebook backing for an appeal. The injury may have been caused by carelessness on the part of the other fencer, but that's not an excuse in my mind.
[/rant off]

Thanks!

[AllisonT]

As in life, its the intent behind the action. Notoriously difficult to prove intent, however. In the broken thumb case, the opponent obviously stopped and refused to fence further so your fencer could deal with an injury - no bad intention there.

Rule books are intentionally vague on these points so that individual differences can be taken into account. Not satisfying, I know.

[daveappr]

I think that ths falls more into the" I know it when I see it", category. I had a student blow out a knee when a competitior fleched directly into her during a tournament last January. He made no attempt to avoid her, merely chosing to bowl her over like yesterday's news. No card for jostling, although she was knocked back about 5 feet and sent sprawling on her rear. Brutality- possibly, as he had done this to two other people in the round- neither of whom were seriously injured, but certainly should have gotten a card for jostling.

[O_O]

its part of the game. if someone were to break my thumb i would only have myself to blame.

[Craig]

Is there a written definition of 'violence and brutality' that I missed? If not, what do you all consider to be violent and brutal (jokes about 'all saber fencing' need not apply )?

It's the "community standards of decency" argument - the ref knows it when they see it.

nor was my fencer allowed to take injury time to have the thumb looked at

Misapplication of the rules. If the fencer claims an injury, then they are allowed a 10 minute injury time out. If the medical examiner/trainer at the event confirms that it is not an injury, then yellow card to fencer for delay of bout. The fencer and you as the coach should have known that and it was your responsibility to hold the referee to the rules.

The only caveat to the injury rule is that the fencer is allowed one time out per injury. So, if I sprain my right ankle on the first bout of the day and take an injury time out, I can not take another injury time out during the tournament finals when I re-injure the ankle. I either fence or forfeit at that point. Now, if I sprain my left ankle, I can take a time out for that.

In your fencer's case, if they had taken a time out earlier in the day for a blow to the thumb, then they would not be allowed another later in the day.

Hope that helps,
Craig

[MikeHarm]

This is one of the rules I don't like so much because with it being so poorly defined it can be one of those depends on how the directors feel about you wether you get it or not sort of cards.

[Craig]

This is one of the rules I don't like so much because with it being so poorly defined it can be one of those depends on how the directors feel about you wether you get it or not sort of cards.

Yes, but it does give the referee latitude to control the bout.

I'll use an example that I'm not proud of, but I'm proud of how the referee handled it.

I was fencing against someone less experienced who was a natural hack and slasher fencing foil. This guy was a bit out of control and kept hitting hard with attempted flicks.

During the course of the bout, I rubbed my shoulder a few times and made it clear to my oppoenent that they were out of control. One hit later, I lost it and decided to go by my old sabre training (dry days) - you hit me hard once, fine. Do it twice and you get hit back.

So, next touch I take a circle six and wind up and deliver the hardest flick I can to his shoulder.

My friend who was reffing takes out the card and penalizes me for the vindictive hit and tells us both to calm down.

I agreed with the card - I was being vindictive. The referee kept control of the bout and we did not escalate and both of us fenced much cleaner from that point on.

Craig

[hpfencing]

It has to be a judgement call, there is no way a rule book can outline exacts for everything. Every situation is different which makes it hard for the referee as well as the fencers.

Fencing out of control and vindictive actions are not called as much as they should be in our area.

[oiuyt]

If the medical examiner/trainer at the event confirms that it is not an injury, then yellow card to fencer for delay of bout.

Or more likely a red card for unjustified claim of injury. :)

As in life, its the intent behind the action. Notoriously difficult to prove intent, however. In the broken thumb case, the opponent obviously stopped and refused to fence further so your fencer could deal with an injury - no bad intention there.

Simply not true. A violent hit does NOT require intent. Vindictive actions do. Intentional brutality does. Violent hit does not. Rarely called without intent, but the rule doesn't require it.

What is a violent hit? As with so much else, referee's discretion. It's whatever this particular referee considers a violent hit.

-B :)