Off-Target in Sabre

[mrbiggs]

I was thinking the other day....why isn't there an off-target in sabre? The reasons for the existence of the off-target in foil make sense, and in sabre the same rules for the most part apply. So why do we stick to on-target hits in sabre, and have off-targets in foil?

(Sorry if that's a dumb question.)

[prototoast]

Because it would be impossible to get an off target hit to register without creating some sort of off target lamé.
It is not feasible given the current scoring apparatus.

[mrbiggs]

Because it would be impossible to get an off target hit to register without creating some sort of off target lamé.
It is not feasible given the current scoring apparatus.

Ok, then two questions:

1. When sabre was dry, did they call off-targets?

2. If it was to be made possible with the scoring machines, would the FIE put it in?

[Epictetus]

1. When sabre was dry, did they call off-targets?

Yes. One of the professors at our school was just press ganged into coming out to practices when we learned he used to fence sabre. He has fenced competitively since electric equipment came into use, so we've been rehabilitating him, as it were. One of the biggest things is calling halt in a bout when a hit lands off target. So yeah, we'll get there eventually.

[cowpaste]

There used to be off targets in sabre I believe. Then they rid of that capteur system and stuff.

[telkanuru]

Can someone explain the capteur system?

[edew]

If there is a way to make off-target register in saber now, I don't think FIE will go that way. The reason is because the on-target portion of saber is contiguous and not obstructed by anything else (with the minimal possibility of the hand behind the guard). In foil, the mask, arm, and back arm are off-target and they may all (legitimately or not) obstruct the attack to the on-target. A legitimate attack to the on-target in foil may be blocked by off-target. That's not likely or even possible in most cases in saber. So there's no need to indicate that.

Of course, hits to the off-target in saber does make the hitter think that he hit on target. Schade. Tough tooties.

[Peach]

There used to be off targets in sabre I believe. Then they rid of that capteur system and stuff.

They didn't have off-targets with capteurs. Capteurs were just supposed to ensure that the cuts were made with the proper acceleration.

[Inquartata]

I.e. they were supposed to tell the difference between a clean hit which coincidentally hit guard or blade, and a whipover. They did not do a memorably good job at it.

Even as it stands, there IS off-target in sabre. It just doesn't stop the action. A good ref will spot a cut that hits low and then skips onto valid target and call it attack-no remise.

IMO they ought to treat off-target in foil the same way. Then perhaps foil bouts would not consume so much time, and foilists would not be able to get themselves out of jams by deliberately getting a white light.

[peet]

IMO they ought to treat off-target in foil the same way. Then perhaps foil bouts would not consume so much time, and foilists would not be able to get themselves out of jams by deliberately getting a white light.

True, we wouldn't be able to stop the action by hitting OT, but we would be able to score with our cheesy counterattack by getting our arm, elbow, shoulder, whatever in the way of the attack while we counter. (Can you say "lefty trick"? )

You can't do that in saber, as edew has pointed out, so there's less damage to the game from not having a white light. Foil, on the other hand, could get ugly without the white light (IMHO).


-p

[Schiavona]

Foil, on the other hand, could get ugly without the white light (IMHO).


-p

Peet, don't you mean ulgier ?

[peet]

Peet, don't you mean ulgier ?

Yeah, well, you're right. The timing changes may be bad, but if they'ed done all the things to foil that they were contemplating, yes, it would be much uglier. No white lights, mangiarotti tip, no fleche, and saber masks?

Yikes!

..... Or were you not talking about the recent changes?

-p

[cowpaste]

They didn't have off-targets with capteurs. Capteurs were just supposed to ensure that the cuts were made with the proper acceleration.

Wow, never knew that. The capteur stuff all disappeared way before my time. I still get confused by the white lights that appear in sabre on older machines. I just figured they used to be implemented. :P

[Peach]

Wow, never knew that. The capteur stuff all disappeared way before my time. I still get confused by the white lights that appear in sabre on older machines. I just figured they used to be implemented. :P

The white lights on the older machines are intended to show the absence of
a capteur, I think.

[Victor]

If there is a way to make off-target register in saber now, I don't think FIE will go that way. ...

Design issues aside...
I've heard that they're moving toward eliminating action halts for off-target in foil anyway, so it wouldn't make sense to introduce them to saber now.

[edew]

I.e. they were supposed to tell the difference between a clean hit which coincidentally hit guard or blade, and a whipover. They did not do a memorably good job at it.

Even as it stands, there IS off-target in sabre. It just doesn't stop the action. A good ref will spot a cut that hits low and then skips onto valid target and call it attack-no remise.

IMO they ought to treat off-target in foil the same way. Then perhaps foil bouts would not consume so much time, and foilists would not be able to get themselves out of jams by deliberately getting a white light.

Men's foil (even at the lower levels) generally don't have this problem on incessant off-targets. Women's foil, however, have too many off-targets even to the upper-upper echelons. It could be that women's bodies are slimmer and the hard shell protector makes for some non-registered on-targets that bounce onto the off-target territory.

[cowpaste]

I would simply abhor foil fencing without white lights.

This Saturday, I had so many damn offtargets because two of my opponents completely doubled over when they counter-attacked. The change in orientation of the target area caused my tip to merely slide along their lamé until I white-lighted on their upper thighs. Needless to say, this was highly frustrating because I actually "hit" them on target but the point would not catch on their lamés because of the angle. I attempted to combat this by lunging/fleching much harder, which only caused their inner thighs to get hit harder. :P The new timings were not used in this particular bout, but I hate how I will soon be unable to just flick these duckers in the back.

I know my previous statements sound like I am complaining, but suppose we eliminated offtargets. I would have lost all those points to stupid nOOb counter-attacks.

[achilleus]

I would simply abhor foil fencing without white lights.

This Saturday, I had so many damn offtargets because two of my opponents completely doubled over when they counter-attacked. The change in orientation of the target area caused my tip to merely slide along their lamé until I white-lighted on their upper thighs. Needless to say, this was highly frustrating because I actually "hit" them on target but the point would not catch on their lamés because of the angle. I attempted to combat this by lunging/fleching much harder, which only caused their inner thighs to get hit harder. :P The new timings were not used in this particular bout, but I hate how I will soon be unable to just flick these duckers in the back.

I know my previous statements sound like I am complaining, but suppose we eliminated offtargets. I would have lost all those points to stupid nOOb counter-attacks.

It'll take time to adjust, but you'll learn how to deal with such people. We epee fencers have to deal with slimy, nasty, counter attacking Canadians - I mean, people all the time, so we know how to deal.

You foilists circumvented the problem with flicking, but now you'll have to actually take your time, set up you action, and finish. It's not difficult, it just requires more work than straight lunge-flick.

[cowpaste]

Well, give me a suggestion of what to do. I aim at their torso. I hit them right in the middle of the chest, but the point slides down to their leg. What else can I do other than simply hit harder to increase the depression chance? The distance is fine. The timing is fine. I guess I could aim for their shoulder or something, but that is rather risky because it's easy to miss a thrust attack to the shoulder, especially when they are bending over while counter-attacking.

[achilleus]

Well, give me a suggestion of what to do. I aim at their torso. I hit them right in the middle of the chest, but the point slides down to their leg. What else can I do other than simply hit harder to increase the depression chance? The distance is fine. The timing is fine. I guess I could aim for their shoulder or something, but that is rather risky because it's easy to miss a thrust attack to the shoulder, especially when they are bending over while counter-attacking.

I'll give you two:

1) Relax your arm. It's much easier to hit the target and make the point stick if your arm is relaxed and soft. If it's tight, then it's more likely to slide off. Especially against a counter attacker who's not going to retreat or parry.

2) Second intention. Start your attack, look, wait for the opponent to counter with disgusting form (warning: do not look at the form otherwise you will be blinded by it's mixture of strangeness, hideousness, and beauty at the same time) and then (or take the blade and) finish to the open target (whether it's back, flank, chest, etc...)