Patinado's...

[Tony Soprano]

Can someone please tell me wether Patinado's are just a straightforward advance-lunge... or they involve stamping your foot down prematurely and continuing so to disconcert the opposition?

[haroldbuck]

Can someone please tell me wether Patinado's are just a straightforward advance-lunge... or they involve stamping your foot down prematurely and continuing so to disconcert the opposition?

My understanding is that patinando means "fast foot" in Italian. What it means is likely to be debatable--ask a room full of fencers and coaches what a ballestra is and then stand back and watch the fur fly--but *I* was taught that it is an advance lunge in which your front foot moves slowly in the advance but your back foot changes tempo and goes faster.

The logic is that it is *much* easier to catch your opponent off guard if you change tempo in mid-advance than if you change tempo between distinct foot actions. To make it work, you need to make the first part *slow*, because it's much harder to pick up speed if you're already going fast.

I'm sure you'll get other definitions as well. Some may call the patinando the advance with a change of tempo and then talk about patinando-lunge. Whatever. It doesn't really matter as long as everyone you're talking to knows what the house definition is. The USFA would really like it if we could standardize terminology, though.

[Tony Soprano]

My understanding is that patinando means "fast foot" in Italian. What it means is likely to be debatable--ask a room full of fencers and coaches what a ballestra is and then stand back and watch the fur fly--but *I* was taught that it is an advance lunge in which your front foot moves slowly in the advance but your back foot changes tempo and goes faster.

The logic is that it is *much* easier to catch your opponent off guard if you change tempo in mid-advance than if you change tempo between distinct foot actions. To make it work, you need to make the first part *slow*, because it's much harder to pick up speed if you're already going fast.

I'm sure you'll get other definitions as well. Some may call the patinando the advance with a change of tempo and then talk about patinando-lunge. Whatever. It doesn't really matter as long as everyone you're talking to knows what the house definition is. The USFA would really like it if we could standardize terminology, though.

Well the USFA seems rather disordered compared to the BFA and FIE... but that may just be cos I'm precedented...

[Sabresque]

My coach says it and whenever he does it just means a straightforward advance, lunge.

[Schiavona]

As I was taught and as I teach, you could call it an Advance-Step lunge. Start the advance with the front foot, bring the rear foot up to the back of the front foot and lunge. Covers a lot of ground. You can do a lot of varying tempos too.

[rory]

... and I was taught that it's a lunge with a foot tap in the middle.
As in, start your lunge, and as you're in mid-lunge slap your front foot lightly on the floor.

[Schiavona]

Why in the world would you ever want to interupt your lunge to tap your foot on the floor?

I neglected to mention (mostly because I dropped it) that the front foot was supposed to slap the floor in an appel at the start of it.

[Christopher J Umbs]

AFAIK - It's like an advance lunge, but the advance is done at a quicker tempo than a regular advance.

[grotto]

Why in the world would you ever want to interupt your lunge to tap your foot on the floor?

I neglected to mention (mostly because I dropped it) that the front foot was supposed to slap the floor in an appel at the start of it.

hmmmmm. The appel as I was taught is a lunge, 1/2 recovery (front foot does not land on the recovery, the back leg coils.) then a re-lung where the front foot lands in proper lung distance. Great way to draw a counter retake and hit!

But I have heard your definition as well.

[SouthPaw]

It's a tiny and extremely fast advance to gain momentum, bring back foot up a little further than normal (people who bring their back foot RIGHT up to their front foot are losing speed), and blast off in a lunge. I use it all the time, basically instead of lunging... it's much faster and has more momentum, and covers more ground.

[Tony Soprano]

I think I asked the wrong question... so many different desciptions...

Interesting that the other Brit says what I was thinking... But then I'm well aware that I don't have a clue....

[Allen Evans]

Why in the world would you ever want to interupt your lunge to tap your foot on the floor?

Schiavona:

It's possible to begin a lunge as a hesitation, or floating lunge, and then - as the lunge unfolds - slap the floor with your front foot and change the tempo of the lunge. I don't see it used much, but it does have it's uses when the footwork in a bout is fairly static.

Allen Evans
Dominion Fencing

[VorpalCat]

Am having an excessively senior moment here but bear with me ... there's the 'fake' advance where instead of the front foot coming down as usual, as soon as it makes the briefest contact with the floor it's kicked forward into a full lunge ... wondering if this might be the mid-lunge tap in question?

[latenight]

I was taught that an appel is a foot stomp ie

Appel - hitting the ground with the ball of the foot

Patinando - step forwards with appel from the rear foot as the front foot lands.

[Spike327]

... and I was taught that it's a lunge with a foot tap in the middle.
As in, start your lunge, and as you're in mid-lunge slap your front foot lightly on the floor.

I'm pretty sure this is just appel-lunge.

I was taught that Patinado is an advance lunge with a tempo variation:
Front foot moves forward 'slow'
Back foot moves forward quickly as soon as front heel lands
Back heel comes down quickly after back toe lands*
Lunge

*This is assuming that you normally advance by pushing off the ball of your back foot, and you bring the ball of your back foot up at the end of each advance (as opposed to dropping the whole back foot down on the ground at the end of each advance).

[Inquartata]

From "Martini A~Z Fencing", E.D. Morton:

Patinando, ( It. ). A quick step forward, followed by a lunge.

[Schiavona]

Schiavona:

It's possible to begin a lunge as a hesitation, or floating lunge, and then - as the lunge unfolds - slap the floor with your front foot and change the tempo of the lunge. I don't see it used much, but it does have it's uses when the footwork in a bout is fairly static.

Allen Evans
Dominion Fencing

I can see what you describe, but what was described by Rory seemed to be something else. Allen, you know how limited my expirence actually is, but have you ever seen an appel actually work the way it is supposed to?

John

[sabreur]

I can see what you describe, but what was described by Rory seemed to be something else. Allen, you know how limited my expirence actually is, but have you ever seen an appel actually work the way it is supposed to?

John

A lot of sabreurs start with an appel, then a couple of short steps forward. It gives you another instant to observe what your opponent is doing before you commit. If your opponent is charging, you can either attack in prep or retreat and parry.

It is useful to practice an appel that either turns into an advance, a lunge or a retreat. Coupled with a properly executed advance/half-advance, it gives you one more way to control tempo and distance.

I agree with the imperial Inq and Martini--a patinado is an advance-lunge with accelerating tempo.

MR

[Schiavona]

Sabreur, What I meant about the appel was that I was taught that when used properly it distracted your opponent or broke their concentration for a moment(same thing I guess). Don't think I ever saw it work that way.

[sabreur]

Sabreur, What I meant about the appel was that I was taught that when used properly it distracted your opponent or broke their concentration for a moment(same thing I guess). Don't think I ever saw it work that way.

With all the yelling going on, don't think anyone is going to even hear a footslap.



MR