What to do about beginners?

[Silenius]

Ive been fencing for about 6 years now, but for the last 3 years ive been at college with a, lets put it nicely, sub-par fencing program. I have been mostly out of formal training for much of that time. I fence bouts with some of the other students on a weekly basis (I finally convinced them to fence eletric). So now Im fencing beginners, even beginners who have been "playing with swords" for a couple years here, and I find it to be quite a challenge to beat them sometimes. The lack of control, technique, and strategy is just ovewhelming. There are even a few who are quite intelligent, and who might be good fencers given a good coach, but now are just a catastorphe on the strip.

I know the obvious answer that I should train more, but is there really any good advice for what a decent fencer should do against people like this? I have found, much to my chagrin, that I have even started fencing like them sometimes. Has anyone found a good way to deal with these kind of fencers without becoming like them?

[riptide]

Fence like you, not like them.

[keith]

take a deep breath, keep distance and wait.

Don't feel like you have to score quickly, watch and wait.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Start coaching. Work on YOUR form while coaching, and work on seeing THEIR flaws. Work on improving them, work on molding them into suitable partners. Since they are unpredictable, you need to take advantage of the begginers weakness: fear. When fencing, scare kain into them, and try to make your form as good as possible. The only thing predictable about begginers is that they can be easily intimidated.

[LordTofuDog-jnr]

Against people with bad technique or a lack of experience the best thing to do is keep it simple, what's that? Keep it simple! I'm assuming that you're quite a lot better than them so just wait for the opportunity and lunge 'em, or disengage first - it's all good - as long as it's simple.

(100th post, Booyah!)

[ls14evar]

true dat.

Fear and surprise.

Though honestly, I either strike straight for the point I want. Beginners rarely parry well enough to deflect a good determined attack. Or wait out of their flailing range for them to commit a big mistake and go for the point then.

In epee they can be quite dangerous, because while they might not be able to organize an offence or defence on their own, they can react to everything by extending and get doubles or worse.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by Silenius

Ive been fencing for about 6 years now, but for the last 3 years ive been at college with a, lets put it nicely, sub-par fencing program. I have been mostly out of formal training for much of that time. I fence bouts with some of the other students on a weekly basis (I finally convinced them to fence eletric). So now Im fencing beginners, even beginners who have been "playing with swords" for a couple years here, and I find it to be quite a challenge to beat them sometimes. The lack of control, technique, and strategy is just ovewhelming. There are even a few who are quite intelligent, and who might be good fencers given a good coach, but now are just a catastorphe on the strip.

I know the obvious answer that I should train more, but is there really any good advice for what a decent fencer should do against people like this? I have found, much to my chagrin, that I have even started fencing like them sometimes. Has anyone found a good way to deal with these kind of fencers without becoming like them?

i know i'm going against what everyone here is suggesting but i'm in a similar situation as you..in fact, next semester, i'll be the only epee fencer around. they say to keep it simple and work on stuff. that only helps if the other fencers are giving you "fencing actions" in return. if they are not reacting "correctly", you can't work on stuff with them to benefit YOU. unfortunately, this situation will cause you to possibly develop bad habits like you said. sometimes i think its better to not fence than to override good habits with bad ones. you'll probably plateau for a while (i.e. till you leave the school) but its better than going south...IMO...not that you shouldn't fence AT ALL but at least minimize your time with these fencers as much as possible.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by glowstix

i know i'm going against what everyone here is suggesting but i'm in a similar situation as you..in fact, next semester, i'll be the only epee fencer around. they say to keep it simple and work on stuff. that only helps if the other fencers are giving you "fencing actions" in return. if they are not reacting "correctly", you can't work on stuff with them to benefit YOU. unfortunately, this situation will cause you to possibly develop bad habits like you said. sometimes i think its better to not fence than to override good habits with bad ones. you'll probably plateau for a while (i.e. till you leave the school) but its better than going south...IMO...not that you shouldn't fence AT ALL but at least minimize your time with these fencers as much as possible.

I concur and will merely say:

Train more
Fence less

[GreenDot]

If your objective is to beat the beginners, work on a beginner game. Keep good distance, and only use straight attacks until they actually start doing something about them. Just stay disciplined and don't try anything fancy until you have to. Work hard on your distance and timing. Eventually the people you're fencing will get tired of losing 15-0 and might actually see why they need to change their game. When this happens you can move on to more complicated actions.

-James

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by ls14evar

Fear and surprise.

"NO-body expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise. Surprise and fear. Our two main weapons are surprise, fear, and ruthless efficiency...Our three main weapons are surprise, fear, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope...Our four main--oh, bugger! We'll go out and come back in again..."

[Silenius]

Thanks for the responses. let me clarify somethings. I tried coaching, i can do it on a very individual level but the sports department is totally against it. They are committed to this level of fencing.

I have started training more and fencing less. its just that I dontr eally have anyone to train with. I can do footwork fine but if I hand them a blade and say wer are going to practice this action I get blank stares.

There is another message thread about good fencers losing to bad ones. Thats kinda how I feel. The surprise element doesnt work as well as you would expect either. some of them have been fencing for a year or more. but with no outside stimuli or coaching its their technique which is still at the beginner level, not their mentality.

But my real question is how to fence them. Not necessarily to beat them. But
simply, how do I make use of these beginners so I can do well against them and still be training for competitions? the problem is that when I go to local competitions my results are getting worse and worse.

[ViewtifulMisho]

I think the correct course of action is to act elitist around the beginners. We don't need any more people overcrowding our sport. It's at the height of popularity as it is.

[shlepzig]

When faced with beginnera, they are prone to making erratic actions, and using "unconventional" tactics.

Use these opportunities to train your brain.

If you must avoid getting beaten, react to what they do, not what they should do. This will train your mind to fence deliberately, not reactively. Which will make you a stronger more adaptable fencer.

It is practice so getting beaten in a bout is not that big of a deal. Chose the attack and location for each touch. Set it up and make it, don't count the touch for yourself unless it goes as planned. This will help you work on specific tactics, and strengthen parts of your gain. Try to choose touches that you find hard in serious bouts, or ones that play into the strength of your opponents game. If you want to add some elitism to the bout, call the shot before you start.

In epee I fence some women whom are good fencers but are not as tall or as quick as I am. I can pick them off on the arm most of the day. So when I fence them, I go for the deeper, body and leg shots. Having to move in closer works to the strength of their game and increasese the tactical value of my practice.

There are lots of ways you can make practice bouts with beginners very useful. Try to help them while you are at it, if you are not allowed to coach, give pointers while you bout. Let them know if they were telegraphing to you, and how, or if a wild parry is setting them up for a simple disengage hit.

Fencing is a great sport for building a community spirit for the group you are in, and if that community is dedicated to bettering everybody's fencing you will all improve.

Shlep.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Silenius

Thanks for the responses. let me clarify somethings. I tried coaching, i can do it on a very individual level but the sports department is totally against it. They are committed to this level of fencing.

I have started training more and fencing less. its just that I dontr eally have anyone to train with. I can do footwork fine but if I hand them a blade and say wer are going to practice this action I get blank stares.

There is another message thread about good fencers losing to bad ones. Thats kinda how I feel. The surprise element doesnt work as well as you would expect either. some of them have been fencing for a year or more. but with no outside stimuli or coaching its their technique which is still at the beginner level, not their mentality.

But my real question is how to fence them. Not necessarily to beat them. But
simply, how do I make use of these beginners so I can do well against them and still be training for competitions? the problem is that when I go to local competitions my results are getting worse and worse.

I don't mean train with them.

Minimize your bouting time.
Spend more time doing footwork, pointwork, and physical conditioning.
It ain't fun, but none us do enough and it can really improve your game.

Fencing beginners as your only bouts won't help you prepare for competitions unless the competition is full beginners.

[GGK]

Originally Posted by Silenius

But my real question is how to fence them. Not necessarily to beat them. But
simply, how do I make use of these beginners so I can do well against them and still be training for competitions? the problem is that when I go to local competitions my results are getting worse and worse.

It's damn near impossible to improve in the situation you are in. And as you note when you go to competition other fencers are improving and your results get worse and worse.
The advice everyone has given so far is very solid, but if you are serious about improving you need to get out of there. You're a college junior, can you go somewhere to practice and get lessons? Once a week, every other week, once a month? Camps?
And while it maybe impossible to bring in a coach on a regular basis how about bringing in a coach for a weekend workshop, or some other one shot deal to introduce your club to the idea of improvement through practice. (If you don't know who to ask your division chair might be able to recommend a person or two in your area capable, and willing, to help.) But if your clubmates like to gather together and whack away with no thought to improvement...they probably won't like someone coming in and pushing them. If that is the case they would probably appreciate you organizing a movie night instead.

G

[acaba]

It's damn near impossible to improve in the situation you are in. And as you note when you go to competition other fencers are improving and your results get worse and worse. The advice everyone has given so far is very solid, but if you are serious about improving you need to get out of there. You're a college junior, can you go somewhere to practice and get lessons? Once a week, every other week, once a month? Camps?

This sounds much like my situation. I've been fencing 13 years, and recently went back to grad school. While the kids here are enthusiastic, they are not the best fencers in the world. I have been coaching here (for 3 years) and things are improving, but they are not quite up to my level yet.

I have arranged a once-a-month practice with higher level fencers/friends in the area. We meet at a central club (3 hours from me!) and do drills, critique each other, and free fence. Only about 6-8 people are invited so we can keep the quality and intensity up. It's really helped keep me motivated, and keeps my skills sharp.

[ThatReallyHurt]

As a beginner, I find the parent post absolutely correct and full of merit. I've got two thoughts on it, though:

- I wish that the people who are much more experienced than I am wouldn't keep doing things that are way out of my league when we bout. Weird blade movements, ballestra/ballestra/ballestra/ballestra until I'm off the piste, flicking over my shoulder and hitting me in the back, quarte-tierce-sept..whatever things that I have no idea what they are yet, much less how to defend against them, resulting in me panicking and doing the very abberant things that were described.

- That being said, I also find it very frustrating to fence some of the other newbies in my class. ROW seems to be something that some people try their hardest to not understand, and it's very frustrating to those of us who are trying to incorporate it into our fencing. It's a lot nicer to fence someone who actually knows what ROW is and tries to use it. Facing someone who just watched Gladiator the night before is also frustrating for me, in the same manner as was described.

After a particularly frustrating class, I asked my coach about what to do in three situations:

- fencing against Conan
- fencing against someone who thinks that the blades should always be pressed hard against each other
- fencing against a swashbuckler (swing swing, whiff whiff)

She asked me to show her what I meant, so I tried to get in her way and do the things I was having problems against. Her response to all of them was footwork - an awful lot of footwork. I could barely touch blades with her, she kept zipping in and out of my reach and scoring hits.

Sorry this went on for a while, and I hope it doesn't seem snotty or anything - I agree that for experienced fencers, fencing a beginner must be frustrating. I was just trying to show it from a newbie's side, too. Trust me, newbies really appreciate fencing experienced fencers. I learn an awful lot by having my butt handed to me (and that's not sarcasm at all), and appreciate every chance I get to experience it.