pistol vs french fencing

[edelstein]

I'm still a fencing novice, and I'm learning the French foil fencing style, my trainer truly masters and defends this style, however, other fencers tell me that gradually they all switched to the pistol grip and that means winning points with "whip" attacks on the back, or on the belly. They say French grip and style won't take me too far, because that nowadays all fencers go directly to those "whip" touches, that are hard to avoid specially for novice fencers. They also tell me professional fencers use pistol grip and the "whip it" style, because classical French style is too slow. Should I follow what other fencers tell me or should I stick to my training? I find French grip fine, though I'm novice and I don't yet control the tip very well. When I bout with "french"fencers they win me with clean attacks, but other fencers usually win the "french" fencers by using the pistol and the whipping technique. What is your advice?

greetings,
Lisa

[edew]

Hmmm....sounds (reads) like a troll, but I'll bite. Do whatever you think is best for you. If your coach wants you to only use the french grip and you're all right with it, then stick with it. If you're adamant about changing and your coach don't want you to change, then change your coach.

It's possible to whip with the french grip as well as the pistol grip. The french grip will take you about 4 cm further than a pistolgrip, if you can hold it that way. My actual dislike for the french grip is not from the attack perspective, but from the defense, parry perspective. I can't make quick, small (or big) parries with a french grip, lease of all without losing grip of it. Attacking with a french grip is no more easy or difficult than a pistol grip.

As for the whipping technique, it can be defeated. It's certainly not the end-all of fencing techniques. As mentioned in some other thread, I had the joy(?) of fencing Sam (PurpleFencer) at the Long Beach Invitational, and won 5-0 with no "whip" (called flicks) attacks used at all. I think all I did was two simple straight attacks, one "let-him-run-into-my-blade-thank-you-very-much" thingee (it's not an attack, and hardly a counter-attack), one parry-riposte, and one counter-attack with distance. Or something like that.

So, the best thing to do is go through this forum, read all the previous posts about this topic (it's been done to death), and make your decision from it all.

[Inquartata]

It is ( or used to be ) common wisdom that one should learn with the French and then switch to orthopedic grips once one knew enough to make an informed decision based on a solid understanding of ones own strengths and weaknesses. This last requires experience, of course, and hence, time.

It was also said that the French taught better point control, doighte (sic I'm sure )or finger dexterity and "sentiment", i.e. you got a better feel for the opponent's blade with it. The pistols give a stronger, more secure grip and thus permit stronger blade actions.

I used to be a firm ( OK, stubborn ) adherent of the French for the sake of tradition...and that sneaky extra reach that Eric mentioned. However, when I started fencing epee recreationally I was getting trounced regularly, until in one tournament both of my French weapons went down and I had to borrow a Russian. Suddenly I was beating the same people who'd trounced me before, winning pools---and got my E in the weapon quite by accident! Even I was convinced at that point. Went out and got some Russian grips posthaste.

In the final analysis, the advice in Eric's first paragraph is probably the best for a novice...

[veeco]

I would add one point:

I don't think that definitive of a solution to change your coach because they want you to use a different grip than the one you want to use.

Especially when you are a beginner, it doesn't really matter that much.

Also, a flick is NOT faster than a straight attack. It's just harder to parry. The tip might be moving faster, but you're going a long way and usually attacking with a flick is associated with starting the attack with a bent arm, thus delaying the final action.

[MikeHarm]

I feel the main selling point for the french grip for me is that its much harder to do a technique incorrectly and pull it off using a french grip than with a pistol. :-)

Mike

[sallearmourer]

My wife as use a french grip for years and she rated number 5 in vet women foil. I have seen her disarm other pepole using a pistol grip against her. It what you are comforable with. The fencer that just won the world championship use a French grip. When I fence epee I used a french handle better point control.


Tim

[attila]

Q'vo Lisa

La mayoria de los mejores tiradores del mundo usan el ortopedico y no la arma Francesa. Es posible aprender a tirar solo con la Francesa, pero tendras que practicar much mas para podrer dominar los puntos negativos de la arma. Se me hace que uno puede avancar con mas rapidez en el combate con las "pistolitas".

Ciao

Edilberto

[DamedEscrime]

My first coach starts everyone on the French grip in order to strengthen the hand and fingers. I really liked my French foil and resisted a long time when he wanted me to change to pistol. His reasoning was that it would give me better tip control. At first I couldn't stand the feel of it in my hand. I solved that problem by purchasing a nice Visconti grip and keeping it in my pocket. when I had nothing else to do I would take it out and hold it and do "shadow" moves with it. Yeah, a little weird, but hey, I fence. It worked and I do have better control. Oh yeah, I can flick with either one, but rarely do unless provoked.

[big poppa]

I think you should try fencing with both grips. My point control with the french grip is great but it lacks strengh in parries and I tend to lose it in quick actions. With the french I am forced to use distance and beat parries more.What am i saying? I like to use the french for pratice and lessons and the pistol grip for competition.

As for the flick, don't worry about it too much. In time you too will learn how to use it , just don't become a " one trick pony" I have no problems will those "ill flick you to death people"Make the flick just another tool in your box.

[soos]

well guys, i m a french foiler, and i dont know if i get the right sense of this discussion ....

if u r talking about the "foil" itself, with the grip , i definitly advise u to take the french cross grip : 2 fingers ahead + 2 fingers behind ... it wont prevent u from touching in the back, and its way more sensitive than the pistol grip !!!!

really there s no comparison between the 2 cross grips

i first was on the pistol, but i got my *** kicked by my trainers and went back to french grip which is really much better, hehe

anyway, i still think that newbies should be taught with straigh grips, and not cross ones. For instance , here, cross grips r FORBIDDEN till u r 12 (or sthg like this).
Else u d lose all the technic of the "pointe".

At the end, fencing with a french grip or a pistol grip doesnt make u win or lose, winning a game only depends on ur own skills ).

i really advise u to keep the french grip. And if u really need more strengh, it exists french grips with a "bigger rear stick", and/or u can still put some tape on the "stick from behind", that way u ll get more strengh without loosing ur whole "pointe".

[ 11-02-2001: Message edited by: soos ]

[soos]

errrrr i dont know if i see well whats ur "french grip" !!??

the french grip i m talking about isnt the "straight" grip, its the french CROSS grip (still "orthopedic" grip).

the pistol grip is another cross grip with ONLY 1 stick where u put the 4 fingers (most of germans use it)

heheh i hope u can understand me now...

aguante la arma cross francesa ! (no la visconti !)

[DamedEscrime]

Je pense que quelque chose a été détruite dans la traduction. Aux Etats-Unis la poignée française est une poignée droite et la poignée de pistolet est n'importe quelle poignée orthopédique. J'utilise maintenant la poignée orthodepic exclusivement et seulement le Visconti. Mon favori est la poignée que mon entraîneur m'a donnée. C'est le Visconti qu'il a utilisé dans les championnats du monde. C'est mon trésor.

[soos]

yeap ok

so the cross french grip i m talking about is an orthopedic grip, looks like this : (".." r here h=just to keep the spaces, grrrr)

.. |-
. -|
.--|
... |

heheh , good pic no ?!

and the other grip (visconti one) :

.. |-
---|
... |

hehe another good pic.

so thx to dame d escrime , its true after some trining (when u r not a newbie anymore), u d better turn to an orthopedic grip when fencing foil. Then u must choose between french cross grip or visconti one, most of us (french) use the french cross, cose its more with fingers, more sensitive... and germans usually use the visconti one.

[ 11-02-2001: Message edited by: soos ]

[edew]

Soos, go to www.thefencingpost.com/foil.htm and go to the grips section (about mid-point of the page).

Write down the Part Numbers to the grips you think is "french cross" and "visconti" and so on.

I think we have a major translation problem here, otherwise.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally posted by edew:
<STRONG>As mentioned in some other thread, I had the joy(?) of fencing Sam (PurpleFencer) at the Long Beach Invitational, and won 5-0 with no "whip" (called flicks) attacks used at all. I think all I did was two simple straight attacks, one "let-him-run-into-my-blade-thank-you-very-much" thingee (it's not an attack, and hardly a counter-attack), one parry-riposte, and one counter-attack with distance. Or something like that.
</STRONG>

Only ONE "let-him-run-into-my-blade-thank-you-very-much"? I thought it was all five

Damn lefties...

As stated earlier, the flick cannot and should not be the only weapon you've got. "One trick ponys" tend to get into big time trouble when that one thing fails them...they kep trying to make it work instead of going to another technique.

I HAVE seen people flick with a French grip, but not very often (and usually in epee, shooting for the inside of the elbow...specifically, MY elbow.)

[DamedEscrime]

Its ok Edew. I straightened him out on the grips...there was a bit of a translation problem. His french is also an orthopedic grip, not what we call a french grip...

Oh I love language!!

BTW, Sam I can flick better with the French..go figure.

[ 11-02-2001: Message edited by: DamedEscrime ]

[soos]

so the visconti is the viscoti, we agree on this one ... (boooo ****y grip)

the french cross grip i m talking about is the "belgium grip" FF32 , thats the one we french mostly have i guess ... good stuff

i dont see what i called "the french cross grip with a bigger ssecond stick", but its usually a grey grip, similar to the "belgium grip" but with a bigger and straighter second stick ....

i d find pics

PS : wasnt my drawings clear enough ??!!! hahaha

[veeco]

Soos maybe you're talking about what the US calls the Russian grip?

[Gav]

I was reading the latest issue of Escrime and the proposed alterations to the foil game and I feel that abandoning the french prematurely may damage your long term prospects. I am reffering to the proposed changes to the box timing, removal of passe avant attacks, change to the on guard distance (4 to 3 meters) and a couple of other proposals that may be considered for the future.

To keep thing short I'd just like to say the that the proposals would make use of the french in foil a possible advantage. I'd also lke to point out that the reason that most whip hits succeed (and lets not get into the flick argument again) is that they are ruled incorrectly. Stick with the french things may shift to your advantage.

**For the record. I am NOT against flick hits. They ARE being incorrectly judged in the majority of nouts.**

[ 11-02-2001: Message edited by: Gav ]

[edew]

That "flicks" are scored because of incorrect calls is generally false. In many instances, the flicks hit and there are no other lights in the opposite direction. In that case, the flick hit because it successfully reached around an attempted parry.

If you think it's called wrong, then it'll be called wrong even if it were not a flick, but just a coupe.