ROW Retarded

[Epee Scherma]

I'm ROW retarded. I'm sure this question is really stewpid to ask:
Fencer A: advances and hits (not extended)
Fencer B: retreats and hits (not extended)
Double lights.

Simultaneous?

Or point to Fencer A?

Is an advance considered an attack? What is the official definition of attack?

See, this is why I do epee.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I'm ROW retarded. I'm sure this question is really stewpid to ask:
Fencer A: advances and hits (not extended)
Fencer B: retreats and hits (not extended)
Double lights.

Simultaneous?

Or point to Fencer A?

Is an advance considered an attack? What is the official definition of attack?

See, this is why I do epee.

Neither person extended, nobodys ROW. The advance could be counted as an attack, but then again, could the retreat be counted as a defensive action?

[Mihail]

A lot of ROW is feeling that comes through experience, but if their hands did identical motions, it would be A's attack.

[peet]

I'm ROW retarded. I'm sure this question is really stewpid to ask:
Fencer A: advances and hits (not extended)
Fencer B: retreats and hits (not extended)
Double lights.

Simultaneous?

Or point to Fencer A?

Is an advance considered an attack? What is the official definition of attack?

Are we talking about an actual action you witnessed, or a hypothetical situation?

From t.8 of the rulebook:
"The attack is the initial offensive action made by extending the arm and continuously threatening the opponent’s target, preceding the launching of the lunge or flèche"

That being said, the rulebook gives only the beginning of understanding ROW. In practice, even if the attacker advances instead of lunging, it will be called an attack. In your example, you say neither fencer was extendED. But the attack need not be with a fully extended arm. Merely beginning an extension (before your opponent attacks) is enough. In practice, I'll bet it's rare that someone hits without extending at least a little bit.

It's hard to convince anyone you're attacking while going backward though. So without seeing the action (which may have many other things going on not reported here), I'll say point for A.

HTH,

-p

[Neil]

I'm ROW retarded. I'm sure this question is really stewpid to ask:
Fencer A: advances and hits (not extended)
Fencer B: retreats and hits (not extended)
Double lights.

Simultaneous?

Or point to Fencer A?

Is an advance considered an attack? What is the official definition of attack?

See, this is why I do epee.

See Bill Oliver's article for the generally accepted way an attack is called in foil. It doesn't matter whether your arm is ever fully extended, only whether it is extending.

It's hard to imagine a situation where a non-beginner would advance and hit without extending their arm even partially. If they are beginners fencing in a club situation, throw out the action and tell them to move their hand before their feet when they attack .

edit: oops, Peet beat me to it.

[Epee Scherma]

Yes this is entirely hypothetical, I'm just trying to smooth out my knowledge in ROW. I would have said A, but the trouble is that in this hypothetical situation, no one's arms move at all. There is no extending action whatsoever. But now that you peet have mentioned the above, I suppose it shouldn't really matter. Not like this would ever happen in reality.

[glowstix]

i think probably its A's touch. for me, any forward movement towards the opponent without hesitation that finishes with a score is enough for ROW. i think its a bit unrealistic to give ONLY straight arm approaches ROW. that takes away creativity. what about flick attacks and angulations or german disengages, etc..everything won't be straight arm but as long as they finish without hesitation, its enough for me...but then again i'm not a director..i'm now an EPEE fencer.

[The0ne]

Theoretically, if noone ever extends their arm, there is no attack from either side. The rules say clearly that an attack has to have an extending or extended arm, so in that hypothetical situation, simultaneous, no touch.

However, in a bout, you will see the otuch more commonly going to A, since it appears that he is compressing the distance with intention to attack as he is moving forward. Since B is moving backwards with one single retreat it is highly unlikely that B is trying to compress the distance, so you'll see the call in this kind of situation, with some funkyness on the extensions of both fencers probably going to A almost all of the time.

[Purple Fencer]

I would probably call that a simultaneous....no touch. A's advance is a preparation in foil...if they both launch the actual attack (i.e. the attempt to hit) at the same time, there's no ROW

HOWVER, in sabre it would be A's all day long....as long as he keeps moving forward.

[Inquartata]

HOWVER, in sabre it would be A's all day long....as long as he keeps moving forward.

One would think so...

Yet somehow I keep getting called "in preparation" when making an attack, even WITH extending arm, so long as my opponent goes really, really fast into my attack and hits half an instant earlier than I do.

Ah, the puzzlements of sabre.

[Purple Fencer]

One would think so...

Yet somehow I keep getting called "in preparation" when making an attack, even WITH extending arm, so long as my opponent goes really, really fast into my attack and hits half an instant earlier than I do.

Ah, the puzzlements of sabre.

Dumb question, but is he/she hitting before you start your cut? (not that someone of my stature could hit you...as I recall, you pasted me pretty well the one time we fenced at the Coturier a few years back)

It may be that the director just doesn't see it....you know how fast sabre goes. A physically slower fencer may allow the director to see the action....someone really fast may just be TOO fast!

[Inquartata]

No, it was just a really fast counterattack into my attack. And with a good referee, at that. My suspicion is that he is anticipating the new timing and awarding on the basis that such a counter will soon lock out a less lightning-fast hit.

However, it rather vitiates the definition of the attack if one can simply turn it into a de facto "preparation" in the referee's mind by lashing out as fast as you can into it.

[mrbiggs]

Officially, it's simulataneous.

Any director today would call it A's attack.

[Epee_Pox]

Okay, I have another dumb ROW question.

Opponent moves toward me and I retreat. While we're moving, he thrusts his foil out at me. Without touching his blade, I twist aside slightly to evade his point and simultaneously poke him in the chest as he completes his thrust.

He's moving forward, he's got the full extension, he's clearly attacking, I never parried. But I got the one light. Do I still not get the point?

[keith]

only if you shout loudly when you make the hit.

[esskreemr]

Okay, I have another dumb ROW question.

Opponent moves toward me and I retreat. While we're moving, he thrusts his foil out at me. Without touching his blade, I twist aside slightly to evade his point and simultaneously poke him in the chest as he completes his thrust.

He's moving forward, he's got the full extension, he's clearly attacking, I never parried. But I got the one light. Do I still not get the point?

Well, you evaded his attack. You hit. He missed. Why would he get a point for not hitting you? Right of way merely gave your opponent the priority in the attack not a guaranteed point.

[Epee_Pox]

Well, you evaded his attack. You hit. He missed. Why would he get a point for not hitting you? Right of way merely gave your opponent the priority in the attack not a guaranteed point.

Because when I do just that, I get chided for not playing by the rules, and my points are disallowed.

[esskreemr]

Because when I do just that, I get chided for not playing by the rules, and my points are disallowed.

Do you step off of the strip? Are you turning your shoulder?

[Purple Fencer]

Because when I do just that, I get chided for not playing by the rules, and my points are disallowed.

*BUUUZZZZZZZZ* Wrong answer! Who's doing this to you...in club or at a sanctioned event??

As long as you stay within the boundaries of the strip, displacing the target is allowed...what you're doing sounds like an inquartata...a perfectly legal move.

If you opponent misses, sucks to be him...point to you.

Find a rule book and learn it. it helps.

[oiuyt]

Because when I do just that, I get chided for not playing by the rules, and my points are disallowed.

Of COURSE you're cheating. You mentioned taking a retreat, didn't you.

Oh, wait, this is foil, not Mensur. NM.

-B :)