IOC trying to reduce 3 weapons to only 1?

[Bugaboo]

Anyone here have information on the IOC's idea to simplify weapons from the epee, foil and saber to a single weapon and new target rules?

[ 08-20-2001: Message edited by: Bugaboo ]

[epeemike81]

hey bugaboo,

nice try!

Is it April 1st already?????

-m

[DarkTransient]

I think that is exactly what they should do. There are not enough of variety of weapons but too many events.

FIE should figure out a new set of rules so that all 3 weapons are combined into 1 game.

But anyway I wouldn't get my hopes up, FIE is probably the most useless organization on this planet.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally posted by DarkTransient:
<STRONG>FIE is probably the most useless organization on this planet.</STRONG>

You mean besides the Los Angeles City Council?

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by DarkTransient:
<STRONG>I think that is exactly what they should do. There are not enough of variety of weapons but too many events.

FIE should figure out a new set of rules so that all 3 weapons are combined into 1 game.

But anyway I wouldn't get my hopes up, FIE is probably the most useless organization on this planet.</STRONG>

Tell me this is tongue in cheek. Please.

Hey Inquartata,

I think I found something we can agree on, unless you REALLY want to play devil's advocate...

-m

[Bugaboo]

:-)
Just remember that you heard it here first.

[veeco]

I heard this the first time a long time ago. I knew a guy who was working on it actually. The idea was to create a totally new weapon, a sort of ugly hybrid between foil and epee. Touches scored on the arms and the legs would be 1 point, touches scored on the torso would be two points (yeah, and HOW do you implement that?). There would be some sort of right of way.

Needless to say, this is another futile attempt at "making fencing more popular" which I totally disagree with. Fencing can be popular the way it is. It is just a matter of educating the people. Why do we have to lower fencing to the expectations of other people, instead of trying to explain them where this is all coming from? Beats me.

[DarkTransient]

Here is what I think will work:

1. Remove right of way
2. Use point system. Meaning differn target has different value and different lock-out time. e.g. limbs 1 point and 1 second cutoff time; head and torso 3 points and 1/2 second; neck 4 points and 1/2 sec; heart 5 points and 1/25 sec.
3. Make fencing free-style, so you could see epee vs sabre or sabre vs foil or foi vs epee, etc.

I think this would simulate what real dueling should be.

[ 08-20-2001: Message edited by: DarkTransient ]

[Sciurus Rex]

Someone just asked, "Why do we have to lower fencing to the expectations of other people?..."

Oooooh! We're all so hoity-toity high and mighty! -- "Looky me! I'm a FENCER and you're NOT! I figgered out the complex weapon rules while you're still a confused little baaaaby!"

Why is epee the easiest blade sport for the uneducated masses to appreciate? Because it's SIMPLE - first touch, first point. (Right of way convention, baloney!)

Why make change fencing at all for the public? Because accessibility improves popularity and attracts money. Money drives the media. And the media increases public awareness and further involvement.

I *want* more people involved in fencing, even if it means the sport changes slightly in the process. Yeah, I like the feeling of being in an "elite" group, but that group could stand to be a little larger. I'll still be a fencer.

I figure most people who express reluctance about changing the sport are either unwilling to change themselves, afraid that they'll be ignored in the crowd when more people are involved, or they're just small-minded and petty.

:-) (I said "most" and put a smiley face here. That means I haven't insulted anyone in particular, right?)

[d8m]

Originally posted by DarkTransient:
<STRONG>Here is what I think will work:

1. Remove right of way
2. Use point system. Meaning differn target has different value and different lock-out time. e.g. limbs 1 point and 1 second cutoff time; head and torso 3 points and 1/2 second; neck 4 points and 1/2 sec; heart 5 points and 1/25 sec.
3. Make fencing free-style, so you could see epee vs sabre or sabre vs foil or foi vs epee, etc.

I think this would simulate what real dueling should be.

[ 08-20-2001: Message edited by: DarkTransient ]</STRONG>

You forgot:

4. Allowing people to grapple, kick and headbutt.
5. Provide chandeliers to swing on, stairs to climb on, and narrow bridges over endless chasms.
6. One person is a villain, and the other hero.
7. A damsel in distress. Or for the women's events, a gentlemen.
8. Lastly and most importantly, we need brightly colored uniforms! This being the most important!

[soos]

that s what they say ! 1 weapon ! hahah

i bet 10000000 beers on the fact it will never change ! and it cant change !!! thats impossible, they may create a fourth "mediatic" weapon but its impossible to just kill fencing like this ...

this kind of project will never pass ... just ask ppl on fencing.net by a simple survey : Yes or No ! u ll seee ...

impossible : they would kill a full generation of fencers, kill the spirits of fencing, the soul of fencing, the history of fening and the pleasure u can have with different weapons which in fact r 3 different sports. Clubs would die cos most of them r specialized in one or 2 weapons max. and u cant put all the fencers into only 1 champ ! fencing just links 3 weapons to cover a large panel of skills : epee : tactics, duelist weapon... saber : speed, timing, historical weapon, foil : speed, tactics, kind of choregraphic stuff ...


well finally : this idea of 1 weapon SUCK and for sure those who thought about it never fenced !!

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by DarkTransient:
<STRONG>Here is what I think will work:

1. Remove right of way
2. Use point system. Meaning differn target has different value and different lock-out time. e.g. limbs 1 point and 1 second cutoff time; head and torso 3 points and 1/2 second; neck 4 points and 1/2 sec; heart 5 points and 1/25 sec.
3. Make fencing free-style, so you could see epee vs sabre or sabre vs foil or foi vs epee, etc.

I think this would simulate what real dueling should be.

[ 08-20-2001: Message edited by: DarkTransient ]</STRONG>

Ahhh!!!! so it is real dueling you want! I'm sorry, your mistaking us with the "historical" fencing group down the street. This is a modern sport. It is NOT dueling, nor should it, IMNSHO, become such. Such crap should be reserved for the SCA.

-m

[scarlet_woman156k]

Rex, ugh, the last thing I would want to do is cheapen and blur the lines of a sport because the fencing population needs more money and media attention.

If everything in this world was modified because it will attract attention in larger numbers, what would be left? It's like attaching a house of ill-repute next to a religious building so it'll attract more people who wouldn't normally attend church/temple/etc.

If people want to fence, they will pursue their desire to do it in the format that is already present (just like all of us have). If they don't like it, they can just go to the w-h-o-r-e house.

-scarlet.

My god, they actually bleep out w-h-o-r-e on this site. I find that most amusing.

[ 08-20-2001: Message edited by: scarlet_woman156k ]

[soos]

errrrrrr for those who think 1 weapon is a good idea i say this : maybe it could work in a country like USA cose its not a "fencing" country, and ppl who accept it, but just come in europe and ask french/italians and german fencers whose countries r at the basement of fencing and u ll see...

the fact is u can create another spoecific weapon (just like there s "historical/artistical fencing"), but u cant kill a sport like this ...

i simply hate this idea !!!! and makes me a little angry ...

ps : if u wanna talk about this we have to find a live chat...

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Sciurus Rex:
<STRONG>Why make change fencing at all for the public? Because accessibility improves popularity and attracts money. Money drives the media. And the media increases public awareness and further involvement.</STRONG>

I agree.... to an extent. It is one thing to free up the color restrictions, or to mandate lexan for international competitions so that the fencer can be seen. To merge weapons? That is something else entirely! THAT is too high a cost. if the IOC said to the IGB for swimming "choose a single stroke", what do you think they would do? They would refuse, as well they should. the FIE will, likewise, refuse. They ARE three seperate events. They can no more be "merged" than swimming events can.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by soos:
<STRONG>errrrrrr for those who think 1 weapon is a good idea i say this : maybe it could work in a country like USA cose its not a "fencing" country</STRONG>

Please, soos, do NOT turn this into a forum for elitism. It would not work in the US because, though the US is not a "fencing country" (though fencing is not the most popular sport in ANY country, including France), it is the fencing population which would have to deal with it, and the vast majority of US fencers have the same respect for the sport that the vast majority of European fencers do.

Despite our President, the US is not ENTIRELY filled with idiots.

-m

[veeco]

Originally posted by Sciurus Rex:
<STRONG>Someone just asked, "Why do we have to lower fencing to the expectations of other people?..."

Oooooh! We're all so hoity-toity high and mighty! -- "Looky me! I'm a FENCER and you're NOT! I figgered out the complex weapon rules while you're still a confused little baaaaby!"

Why is epee the easiest blade sport for the uneducated masses to appreciate? Because it's SIMPLE - first touch, first point. (Right of way convention, baloney!)

Why make change fencing at all for the public? Because accessibility improves popularity and attracts money. Money drives the media. And the media increases public awareness and further involvement.

I *want* more people involved in fencing, even if it means the sport changes slightly in the process. Yeah, I like the feeling of being in an "elite" group, but that group could stand to be a little larger. I'll still be a fencer.

I figure most people who express reluctance about changing the sport are either unwilling to change themselves, afraid that they'll be ignored in the crowd when more people are involved, or they're just small-minded and petty.

:-) (I said "most" and put a smiley face here. That means I haven't insulted anyone in particular, right?)</STRONG>

I'll reply to you with this:

You may think that I don't want fencing to change because I am afraid I will dissapear in the crowd. You may think that it's just because I am petty and small minded. But I may also think that you want to simplify fencing because you see it as the "easy way" to attract more people. The hard way being, as I said earlier, to educate people, and explain them why the right of way rules are so, why is the valid area in this weapon the torso and the whole body in the other, instead of just creating some junk "fast food" fencing, where everyone can pay they 30 bucks for a lesson, get a good workout, and go home happy feeling like they actually just did some fencing.

As someone pointed earlier, fencing has a history, and while I am not against changing some of the aspects of the game for the purpose of bringing it to the masses, I am not about to throw the whole thing away, reinvent a new sport, call it fencing, and hope that people will enjoy watching it.

[Bugaboo]

"... the FIE will, likewise, refuse."

Ehhh... maybe. You can never trust the FIE. I think they're in cahoots with the IOC.

[ 08-20-2001: Message edited by: Bugaboo ]

[Bugaboo]

Hmmm. How about that pesky off-target light for foil, then? If the IOC (or even the USFA or FIE) changed the rules to omit it entirely, would that be disrupting years of history and a proud tradition? There's no doubt that it would be a significant change to fencing tactics ("Hey, I can't stop his attack with an off-target to the arm anymore!") and training. Must it remain in existence forever, though?

Evolve or die. Change is constant.

Heck, they used to say the same thing about introducing electrical gear on the strip. And, of course, that totally destroyed the sport forever. ...

[ 08-20-2001: Message edited by: Bugaboo ]

[oiuyt]

Touches scored on the arms and the legs would be 1 point, touches scored on the torso would be two points (yeah, and HOW do you implement that?)

A relatively simple way would be to use a standard epee (or an epee-like weapon) and a foil lame. whenever the box would register a touch from the epee-like system it also checks the lame line to see if there's a circuit there as well. If yes, record 2 points, if not record 1.

-B