Leon Paul Blade Sizes

[nctpbsoya]

I was looking at the fencing.net link to the Leon Paul stuff and I noticed size numbers by the blades. Can anyone tell me what these numbers correspond to? Thanks in advance.

[Alex_Paul]

Size 5 is full size for everyone over 13 years old each size below this is progressively 1 inch shorter.

[JEC]

Alex,
Over the past few years, we have had debates about blades for youth fencers. Do you know how this convention of "1 inch progressively shorter" originated from as it is not in the FIE rules?
Thanks,
JEC

[Alex_Paul]

I am afraid I don't know where the convention originated. As far as I know there aren't regulations on length or flexibility but it is something that the British Federation are working on. We make each smaller size also progressively more flexible to help protect children from bruising but again there are no regulations for this.

[nctpbsoya]

Thank you.

[oiuyt]

What'll be great is when all these various NGB's that are all in the process of standardizing what a #0 or #2 blade is come up with different standards. And then people'll blame the FIE for not doing the job despite the fact that the FIE doesn't use or require the sizes in any of their competitions.

Sounds like the US is likely to set the rule to be <84cm while BFA is likely to set it to a number of inches (and they say that Britain doesn't use Imperial measurements any more.... heh).

Mmmm, aren't the flexibility rules in effect regardless of length of blade? Fix the blade 70cm from the tip end, hang the 200g weight, and measure deflection. Why would that be different for a shorter blade?

-B :)

[DHCJr]

One positive thing about 84cm is it is almost the same as 33". Leon Paul is very good about keeping a bare #2 blade at around 32", +/- and when you add a tip, having it at 84cm will pass valid blades, while excluding, so called 4.

The flexibility does not change, since the reduction in the blade length is mostly in the forte.

[JEC]

Theoretically, that means that a #0 can be more flexible than a #2 > #5. This is because flexibility is defined by a maximum of 10 cm deflection with 200g (resistance to weight). A shorter blade can be more flexible and still pass the same norm.

NOTE: because the measurement is at a fixed lenght (70 cm), the argument is actually the opposite. See posts below.

[Barry Paul]

l Thes are the U.K regulations regarding blade length in home competirions.
Regulation blade sizes Junior Competitions
FOIL EPEE SABRE
NAT Age group Category U10 SIZE 0 SIZE 0 SIZE 0
NAT Age group Category U14 or younger SIZE 3 SIZE 2 SIZE 2
NAT Age group Category U15 or younger SIZE 5 SIZE 5 SIZE 5
LPJS Category U9 SIZE 0 SIZE 0 SIZE 0
LPJS Category U13 or younger SIZE 3 SIZE 2 SIZE 2
LPJS Catergory 13 and older SIZE 5 SIZE 5 SIZE 5

LPJS= Leon Paul Junior Series about 30 competitions all weapons run through out the year, with a different starting time hence the different age groups.


FOIL EPEE SABRE
Electric Non Electric Electric Non Electric Same
Length Flex Length Flex Length Flex Length Flex Length Flex
Size0 770mm
~ 30inch
~ 770mm
~ 770mm
~ 765mm
# 90 to 120mm#
Size2 820mm
~ 32inch
~ 820mm
~ 820mm
~ 820mm
# 90 to 120mm#
Size3 840mm
~ 85 to
125mm
~ 33 inch
~ 85 to 125mm
%
Size5 900mm * 55 to 95mm* 35inch
~ 900mm
* 45 to 70mm* 900mm
~ 45 to
70mm~ 880mm
* 40 to 70mm *

* F.I.E. regulation.
# British Fencing regulation.
% British Fencing recommendation
~ Leon Paul Standard.

For Electric Foil and Epee Blades the length shown are blade length including a Leon Paul point complete
For non-electric foil blades the length shown are actual blade length not including any plastic/rubber button.

Barry Paul 17/06/03.

Ref Technical Blades 1

sorry this has not come out off a word document if any one is interested I will reorganise it (try cut and paste into word?)

[DHCJr]

Barry, that is different then what you told me after you talked with your forge manager. It was the length without the tip. If what you wrote was correct, your #5 full length blades at 35" with tip would be the shortest full length blade around, considering all the rest are a little over 35 1/2".

[Barry Paul]

if you are talking about non electri foil the bkade length without plastic tip is 35 inches with tip about 35 3/8. However electric meets F.I.E. regulations 900 mm or 35 7/16 inch. Barry

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by JEC

Theoretically, that means that a #0 can be more flexible than a #2 > #5. This is because flexibility is defined by a maximum of 10 cm deflection with 200g (resistance to weight). A shorter blade can be more flexible and still pass the same norm.

I think you've missed the fact that in all cases the blade is fixed 70cm from the end of the blade. Longer blades merely add more blade beyond that fixed point, and that additional portion of blade is disregarded in this calculation. In theory if you had a super-flexi base of the forte and then stiffened up through the rest of the forte, the middle, and the foible, you could have an insanely whippy (albeit likely completely unuseable) blade that passed the flex testing.

This fixed point in the flex test is also where the implied minimum length of a blade comes from (you can't have a blade less than 70cm because then your blade couldn't have the flex test performed).

-B :)

[JEC]

Yes, I did. However, as blades are tapered, the argument reverses. At 70cm, the average blade #0 has a smaller cross-area (area perpendicular to the length of the blade) than #2, than #5. This means exactly the opposite that I argued earlier. With less cross-area to hold the 200 gm weigth at 70 cm, the maximum limit for a #0 would be stiffer blade than a #5. Furthermore, the maximum flexibility at the tip #5 blade is would be considerably greater than at the tip of a #0 blade.

[HilandDoug]

One of the younger girls in my classes has just purchased a #3 or #4 blade, I forget which, and she loves it. It's much easler for her to control. She says she does not notice any difference from it being shorter. I guess she knows to make up for that inch or two with footwork (or at least I hope she does!)

How cool is it that Alex Paul is on this board to answer this question?

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by Barry Paul

if you are talking about non electri foil the bkade length without plastic tip is 35 inches with tip about 35 3/8. However electric meets F.I.E. regulations 900 mm or 35 7/16 inch. Barry

I believe, the statement I made was poorly written. What I should have stated is the problem with using 82cm for the requirement to replace the rule for #2 blades. As you stated the lengths are approximation. They could be a little over or under, excluding of course the full length blade. I think we can all agree, the youngsters should not have to go to the exactness that the fencers have to go through at a World Championship. The blades you make may vary maybe a cm either way, maybe even slightly more. That is why I suggested 84cm, not to force the manufacturers to change their standards, but to give a lot of leeway to the youth fencers. If they buy a bladed that is marked #2 like the Leon Paul (there are many manufacturers that don't) they should not have a worry, but they also with knowing a length they can buy a unmarked blade with confidence.

[Alex_Paul]

Personally I think that the flexibility of the blade is more important than the length (not in terms of competitions but in general fencing). One of the problems we have seen is that some forges or suppliers take a size 5 blade and cut x amount off tip make a size 3 or 0. The problem is that the cross sectional area at the tip is increaced making the blade stiffer than a full size. I have seen some pretty shockingly stiff junior size epees in the past! One bout against one of those in the hands of an over eager 13 year old and even an adult would be begging for mercy.

The FIE should really suggest lengths and flexibilities for national bodies to adopt as I am certain it would help increace the numbers of junior fencers.

[Zilverzmurfen]

Originally Posted by HilandDoug

How cool is it that Alex Paul is on this board to answer this question?

Or Barry Paul, even!

[VorpalCat]

Originally Posted by Zilverzmurfen

Or Barry Paul, even!

<silly>Now all we need is John Paul, Georgian Ringo.</silly>