Voting age!

[mrbiggs]

What should the voting age be? This thread comes about because of one of my recent journal entries in which I commented on my opinion that anyone who pays taxes should be able to vote. So what do YOU think?

[felicote]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

This thread comes about because of one of my recent journal entries in which I commented on my opinion that anyone who pays taxes should be able to vote.

would that include immigrants who are not citizens?

[jBirch]

If you can serve, you can vote, drink, read porn and smoke. 17 for all.

[S. Hunter]

Any american citizen who is affected by the government in any way should be able to vote. A good age for this to start at is probably 14-16, where you start paying taxes and such. Voting is a right, and rights do not exist without responsibilities, so as soon as a person can be seen to make a responsible choice, they should be able to vote. I would hope that the reason exists atleast at 15, maybe 16 at the LATEST.

[miyamoto]

Originally Posted by S. Hunter

Any american citizen who is affected by the government in any way should be able to vote. A good age for this to start at is probably 14-16, where you start paying taxes and such. Voting is a right, and rights do not exist without responsibilities, so as soon as a person can be seen to make a responsible choice, they should be able to vote. I would hope that the reason exists atleast at 15, maybe 16 at the LATEST.

You ever seen Dave Chapelle's stand up? He has this great riff, where he talks about how people can't decide how old 15/16 is.

Here's a summary from an article:

One of his better rants had to do with children and at what age they might be responsible for their own lives. Elizabeth Smart, the 15-year-old Utah girl who was kidnapped from her home, figured prominently in the commentary. He contrasted her case - she was discovered about nine months after her abduction only a few miles from her home - with that of 7-year-old Erica Pratt, who gnawed through her duct tape bindings to free herself from kidnappers in Philadelphia and was responsible for the arrest of the two men who had taken her. Pratt is African American, and her story received much less attention than did Smart's.

Then Chappelle placed Smart's case in opposition to that of Lionel Tate of Florida, who was convicted of murder in the death of a 6-year-old neighbor. Smart, at 15, was considered a child. But at 14, two years after the crime, Tate was sentenced as an adult to life in prison without parole. (A previously rejected plea bargain was later accepted, and he is now free.)

"When is a 15-year-old a kid and a 12-year-old an adult?" he asked, indicating it might be because one was white and one was not.

One bit they left out is when he weaves in the story the R. Kelley video. His line was 'If at 16, you can't decide if you want a guy to p@#s on you, then you might as well give up. Cuz life gets a whole lot harder than that.'

Until we settle that, I agree old enough to serve, old enough to vote (and all that other fun stuff).

[Army Fencer]

Medical research has shown that you don't use all of your brain in adolescence. How can you say that they are capable of making make a truly informed decision at 14-16?

[ls14evar]

I cant honestly say that I know any 16 year olds that are capable of voting intelligently. Heck, I dont know very many adults who do either. But untill you are living on your own, paying your own bills, and making your own way in the world, I dont think there is any way you can have a informed enough opinion to vote.

[Rogue]

Originally Posted by S. Hunter

Any american citizen who is affected by the government in any way should be able to vote. A good age for this to start at is probably 14-16, where you start paying taxes and such. Voting is a right, and rights do not exist without responsibilities, so as soon as a person can be seen to make a responsible choice, they should be able to vote. I would hope that the reason exists atleast at 15, maybe 16 at the LATEST.

Voting is not a right established by the Constitution. Therefore laws can be defined to leave out certain citizens.
It's true that the 15th, 19th, and 26th Amendments to our Constitution refer to a right to vote in the course of prohibiting voting discrimination based on one's race, sex, or (adult) age, but those protections are hollow because governments may disenfranchise (strip of voting privileges) all citizens, so long as it is done without bias.

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by jBirch

If you can serve, you can vote, drink, read porn and smoke. 17 for all.

This is a great sound-bite slogan, but nonsense, because the requisite qualifications needed in a good soldier are not the same qualification desired in a responsible voter.

The army likes them young (17-18, 19 at the most) because recruits in that age range are EASIER TO MOLD into the Army Way of Thinking. Psychologically, they respond better to peer pressure and adapt easier to blind obedience to orders, unlike their somewhat older counterparts, say 22-24 age range. (This difference was pointed up sharply during the Vietnam conflict, where a lot of draftees were college drop-outs, flunk-outs, or graduates who were no longer able to justify a student deferrment.)

I don't know about you, but I don't consider those qualities optimum for informed choice.

As for porn, drinking, smoking, all the rest, I tend to agree with you. But I think the voting age should be about 25 or so, because those people are more independent-minded.

[MHS Fencer]

I'm sitting here living with the decisions that have been made during this president's reign - I was 16 when he took office and had no say in it. Still, I face the consequences of this president's action and inaction. It's my friends who are serving in the military and defending this country, putting their lives on the line based on what this president says, and none of them were of voting age when he came to office. My point is that so long as you can be reasonably expected to be mentally capable (like when we start charging people as adults for crimes) you should have the ability to vote based on the fact that the decisions made affect you.

Of course, the turnout for, say, 16-17 year olds would probably be something in the range of 10-20% - most people would self-select and those who cared/pay attention would be the ones most likely to vote, and those who are immature wouldn't go through all of the trouble because they don't realize the impact that they can have.

[xcr]

trying a 12 year old as an adult is absurde.
the DA in question should be/ have been dismissed for even trying that.
As for voting age- 16 at the lowist, 18 or perhaps 19 at most.

[Philistine]

Originally Posted by Rogue

Voting is not a right established by the Constitution.

Direct voting for president is not a right established by the federal constitution. However, voting for the Senate and the House is firmly established by the Constitution.

{snip}
but those protections are hollow because governments may disenfranchise (strip of voting privileges) all citizens, so long as it is done without bias.

Actually, it goes beyond that. As voting is considered a fundamental right, a citizen cannot be disenfranchised unless it is necessary to promote a compelling state interest.

--Philistine

[S. Hunter]

Rogue, We do have rights that are not established by the constitution. The founders left out rights so obvious that they thought no one would question them, people did, hence bill of rights. Also, Government is OUR property. We own it, we control it, it is ours. As our property, we choose what to do with it, and not it with us. If my property removes my control from it, then the only course of action is to reassert my ownership of it by force.

[Soldier]

Eighteen seems fair, since that's when you're legally an adult. No earlier, though. Try talking to your average sixteen or seventeen year old, and tell me they're ready to vote.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Excuse me, some of us are.

[S. Hunter]

Eighteen seems fair, since that's when you're legally an adult

That really doesn't hold water. The real issue that tore america from england was taxation without representation. Just because at 18 you are an 'adult', does not mean that the government can't effect you. The point of voting is to be able to choose who can impact your life. Its not an issue of being ready to vote - Whenever the government stops passing laws that effect people perfectly capable of making a very educated decision, then I will accept that those who are impacted by the government should not choose it. Reason is a nice and good argument, but back in the day, it was thought that african american people weren't reasonable enough to vote. Something like: 'Try talking to your average black person, and tell me they're ready to vote."

The phrase 'The people' doesn't just apply to those deemed reasonable or intelligent by the government. 'The people' means everyone.

[Soldier]

Five-year-olds are effected by the government, since it's their parents that get taxed, enlisted, etc. Why can't they vote?

[KShan5[PrFC]]

I would say that there is no legitimate difference between 17 and 18 or 16 and 17. You just have to chose an abitrary age and stick with it. There are plenty of 14 year olds who are more informed than many 50 year olds. Just pick a # and stick with it. Although im pissed i miss this election.

[S. Hunter]

Whenever the government stops passing laws that effect people perfectly capable of making a very educated decision

I believe I said something to that effect. I believe that around 15, people can make a perfectly educated decision. When they are effected, they should be able to vote.

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by KShan5[PrFC]

I would say that there is no legitimate difference between 17 and 18 or 16 and 17. You just have to chose an abitrary age and stick with it. There are plenty of 14 year olds who are more informed than many 50 year olds. Just pick a # and stick with it. Although im pissed i miss this election.

A very good point. I picked eighteen and said "because you're legally an adult" because truly universal suffrage - which would include five-year-olds, et cetera - would be pointless. So the point when you get to do pretty much everything else, seemed a pretty good arbitrary age to start.