How are the latest Leon Paul tips?

[Neil]

I was wondering if anyone has tried the latest Leon Paul tips? I couldn't find anything in the product reviews.

I have not had good experiences with Leon Paul tips in the past. Their budget tips (with a removable plastic collar thing) are really crap: the tip rubs against the grubs screws, gouging a little groove into them. If the groove gets big enough, the tip eventually flies out when you're fencing. I found that when fencing about three times a week, I needed to replace the grub screws at least once a month. I've got a LP foil with another sort of tip, which is better quality, and looks grey: it's coated in teflon or something I think. This tip seems to get gunked up and 'sticky' really easily, and I need to clean it out with a cotton bud every month or so to keep the travel smooth. It also rubs the grubs screws a little, but not as badly as the budget point, and not to the extent that the tip flies out.

I saw on Leon Paul's website that they have a new tip now. Has anyone tried it? Is it worth getting, or should I stick with German tips (with their super travel but annoying tendency for mashed screws and dented barrels)?

edit: I'm talking about foil tips.

[TheArmourer]

Most of the weapons I rewire have LP points and most of those are the budget flavour. I've never seen the problem you describe with the screws. Which part of the tip is doing the damage - the body of the tip or the "washer" at the back?

The new LP tips are a different shape. (NB I've only dealt with the budget variety so far.) They're a bit longer (both the tips and the barrels I think) and the screw holes are furher back, which means you can't put an old tip an a new barrel or a new tip in an old barrel. Not a big problem, but worth knowing that if your tip flies off into the distance, you'll need to replace the whole tip.

I can't give you any news on the long term performance of the new tips yet. That said, the screws seem to be made of a different material. It has a slightly more brassy colour - whether they're harder or not I can't tell for sure but I think they might be, which should aleviate your problem. But the slot in the screws IMHO is too narrow. I can't find a screwdriver that fits them properly - those that are thin enough to get into the slot aren't wide enough to fill the width of the slot. (General engineering principal - always use the right sized tools.)
As with the old points, the screws protrude a less than on the Allstar / Uhlman points.

Since the length of the tip forward of the screws is greater than in the old design, they should be a bit less sloppy, but I'm afraid it didn't register with me whether they were or not.

Providing the materials are to the same spec, the barrels look as robust as they ever were. (My favourite characteristic og the LP points.)

If your decision is beetween dented barrels and replacing screws, I'd say replace the screws - it's a lot cheaper and you don't have to rewire the blade. And assuming the higher grade of LP points will be a better fit than the budget points, I'd say go for those.

Not the most detailed of reveiw I'm affraid, but hopefully might be of some use to you.

[DHCJr]

Even though I do not fence, I have a lot of weapons that I loan out to fencers I know to try out various combinations of blades and tips. I loaned 4 Foils with the regular Leon Paul tips to a fencer who used German and was always denting their barrel and ruining the screws. This is a little over a year ago. I have been meaning to ask them to bring them back so I can try out another type of tip. The report that I got from them, none have needed rewire, which I knew would happen as I have some that have lasted over 3 years. The surprise is they have not needed to open them up at all, they are still working.

[CvilleFencer]

I tried some of the old style (budget) LP tips a while back and had horrible problems with them. About this time I wrote a review about them and Barry Paul got in touch with me and asked if I would like to try out some of the new tips that were just going into production at the time.

They are by far the smoothest traveling, most durable, least problem prone tips I have ever used, and of the four blades I put them on, I have only had problems with one of them. On that one the tip seperated from the colar and had to be preplaced. I have been using them heavily now for about a year, or maybe a bit more.

The screws last forever, the tips are very smooth, the barrels do not seem to dent as they are very thick. They are the only tips I use on my own foils now, although becuase of price our club foils all still have sport 7 French patern tips. The only nit picks I have with the new LP tips is that, because of the lower resistance they seem to go through springs a bit more than the German ones, but after I got a new batch of spring from LP that seems to be about the same. They are also somewhat prone to sticking, but the fix is just to snap/whack them on the table or the floor and they are fine.

IMHO the new LP tips are the best that are available. I hate the barrel dents and mashed screws of the Germans and the sloppiness of the French tips. I would think that you would not be disapointed. Oh, and it is sometimes possible to overtighten the screws on the new tips that can sometimes result in phantom off targets but once you get used to the new tips it is not a probelm.

Best of luck!

[DangerMouse]

I don't have any of their foil tips, but I use the PTFE coated epee tips. I love them. I have yet to need to polish a tip, ream a barrel, or file a bur and I've been using them for about 2 years now. They do require an occasional wipe with some rubbing alcohol and a cotton swab. I did have the metal at the tip break off one tip after about 3 years, but I've had this happen occasionally with every other tip I've used (more than occasionally with the batch of chinese made tips I accidently bought).

[Neil]

Thanks for all of your detailed and helpful comments!

After all these glowing reviews I will buy a couple of the tips to try out.

Originally Posted by TheArmourer

Most of the weapons I rewire have LP points and most of those are the budget flavour. I've never seen the problem you describe with the screws. Which part of the tip is doing the damage - the body of the tip or the "washer" at the back?

The washer at the back rubs the base of the grub screws where they protrude into the barrel. I searched the fencingforum and found that Barry Paul made a reference to this effect as a possible explanation for older LP tips failing the weight test. I'm not sure why this was such a huge problem on the tip I had, if it usually works ok for others.

[TheArmourer]

Off topic, but in reply ...

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

They are also somewhat prone to sticking, but the fix is just to snap/whack them on the table or the floor and they are fine.

IMHO this is very bad practice because:
1. If the screw heads are at all proud of the barrel you can damage them. If you can't then get them out it may mean a whole new point. (Less of an issue with LP tips, but still possible.)
2. It can dent or crack the barrel. (Less of an issue with LP tips, but still possible.)
3. If the tip is a slightly loose fit, the jolt could see the tip dissapearing off across tha salle. (Admitedly less of an issue if the point is sticking, but still possible.)
4. When the contact button is joined to the wire (as is done by most manufacuteres - I reccomend crimping, not soldering) the soldering process heat-treats the copper and it can become brittle. If you slap the point on a hard surface the shock can break the wire at this point and you'll need a re-wire.

If a tip sticks it is usually because it needs cleaning or it is slightly damaged. Slapping it is only a quick & dirty way of postponing a bigger problem.

If the point sticks, spin it with your fingers. This will usually free it.
If that doesn't fix it, take it apart, inspect it for damage, clean it and re-assemble.

If you really MUST give it a whack, do it against the side of your foot.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by TheArmourer

Off topic, but in reply ...

IMHO this is very bad practice because:
1. If the screw heads are at all proud of the barrel you can damage them. If you can't then get them out it may mean a whole new point. (Less of an issue with LP tips, but still possible.)

Only really possible in the way that it is "theoritically possible" that cell phones can generate enough of a spark to set off the gas fumes while you are refueling.

2. It can dent or crack the barrel. (Less of an issue with LP tips, but still possible.)

LP must sell you all the points that fail quality control standards! I would think you are more likely to be hit by a metorite than to have this happen to you.

3. If the tip is a slightly loose fit, the jolt could see the tip dissapearing off across tha salle. (Admitedly less of an issue if the point is sticking, but still possible.)

You forgot to include the part where its possible for the blade to snap, the shards to spin up, hit the director in the eye, and he then falls on top of you impaling you with your own broken blade! And you would deserve it for slapping your tip on the floor you vile villian!

4. When the contact button is joined to the wire (as is done by most manufacuteres - I reccomend crimping, not soldering) the soldering process heat-treats the copper and it can become brittle. If you slap the point on a hard surface the shock can break the wire at this point and you'll need a re-wire.

If the wire is that far gone, it will snap on a hard beat/parry/flick. More than likely when you have seen this happen the wire has already seperated from the cup and the whack just makes it a bit more obvious what the problem is.

If a tip sticks it is usually because it needs cleaning or it is slightly damaged. Slapping it is only a quick & dirty way of postponing a bigger problem.

No sh!t, really? You mean it is not the perfect fix for every problem? You mean it is not a replacement for routine cleaning and maintenance? Your insights have opened my eyes to a whole new world... you really are The Armorer!

If that doesn't fix it, take it apart, inspect it for damage, clean it and re-assemble.

Rith there on the strip. The judge and your opponent won't mind at all. The judge is there to make sure tha you have fun, not to enforce the letter of the rules or to get his bout done as quick as possible so he can gloat to his fellows over hours old bacteria ridden piles of lunch meat and stale bread! He might even hold the grub screws for you!

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by TheArmourer

Off topic, but in reply ...

IMHO this is very bad practice because:
1. If the screw heads are at all proud of the barrel you can damage them. If you can't then get them out it may mean a whole new point. (Less of an issue with LP tips, but still possible.)

Only really possible in the way that it is "theoretically possible" that cell phones can generate enough of a spark to set off the gas fumes while you are refueling.

2. It can dent or crack the barrel. (Less of an issue with LP tips, but still possible.)

LP must sell you all the points that fail quality control standards! I would think you are more likely to be hit by a meteorite than to have this happen to you.

3. If the tip is a slightly loose fit, the jolt could see the tip dissapearing off across tha salle. (Admitedly less of an issue if the point is sticking, but still possible.)

You forgot to include the part where its possible for the blade to snap, the shards to spin up, hit the director in the eye, and he then falls on top of you impaling you with your own broken blade! And you would deserve it for slapping your tip on the floor you vile villin!

4. When the contact button is joined to the wire (as is done by most manufacuteres - I reccomend crimping, not soldering) the soldering process heat-treats the copper and it can become brittle. If you slap the point on a hard surface the shock can break the wire at this point and you'll need a re-wire.

If the wire is that far gone, it will snap on a hard beat/parry/flick. More than likely when you have seen this happen the wire has already separated from the cup and the whack just makes it a bit more obvious what the problem is.

If a tip sticks it is usually because it needs cleaning or it is slightly damaged. Slapping it is only a quick & dirty way of postponing a bigger problem.

No sh!t, really? You mean it is not the perfect fix for every problem? You mean it is not a replacement for routine cleaning and maintenance? Your insights have opened my eyes to a whole new world... you really are The Armourer!

If that doesn't fix it, take it apart, inspect it for damage, clean it and re-assemble.

Right there on the strip. The judge and your opponent won't mind at all. The judge is there to make sure that you have fun, not to enforce the letter of the rules or to get his bout done as quick as possible so he can gloat to his fellows over hours old bacteria ridden piles of lunch meat and stale bread! He might even hold the grub screws for you!

[davtsung]

The new LP points are as good as gold. Solid whacks right to the side have yet to dent mine. I've had slight problems with self maintenance however, but the armoreurs, don't seem to have as much difficulty.

[TheArmourer]

CvilleFencer Thanks for your constructive additions to the debate.

"only really possible ... gasoline" but somehow people still get mashed screws in LP points.
"LP must sell you all the points ..." They must really hate a lot of our club members then.
"... possible for the blade to snap ..." I didn't mention that because unlike the other problems I've listed, I've only once seen a blade snap when slapped against the floor.
"If the wire is that far gone ..." I've actually seen that one on brand new blade, shop wired, first night fencing, in the hands of a very experienced and respected fencer.
"More than likely when you have seen this ... more obvious what the problem is."A very valid point, but I don't belive it to be a universal explanation. (See above.)
"Your insights have opened my eyes to a whole new world" Although my post was in reply to your post, you are apparently well versed in fencing maintainence so the information was intended for those with less knowledge than yourself. I'm sorry you saw it as an attack on you.
"The judge and your opponent won't mind at all." Nor will they mind if you swap weapons.

BTW It may interst you to know that IMHO stands for "in my honest opinion". I believe you may have one of those as well.
And BTW stands for "by the way". Just in case! ;-)

PS If you'd like to tell me I'm an ignorant **** in person, I can give you my phone number.

[CvilleFencer]

Don't get to worked up. I was actually trying to be a bit funny while gently pointing out that some of the things you mentioned were not very likely. Can tip screws get mashed? Sure, but it probably wasn't because someone whacked a blade on the strip. If the blade snaps, it was probably going to snap on the next hit anyway. Better on the strip than agianst your chest. If the barrel splits, it was most likely on to tight to begin with and just needed a good jolt to stress the metal over the line. If the tip goes shooting off, your screws were either missing or too lose. None of those are likely to be caused by an occasional whack, and the whack can in fact be a diagnostic tool to show you what the problem is, albeit in a somewhat final way for the wiring job in a few instances.

I guess I was a bit huffed at your saying my advice for a quick fix was very bad (with italics no less!) and then going into a bit of a diatribe about why it was so awful using somewhat dubious and far fetched examples. I do not think you are an Ignorant **** (maybe a bit arrogant, choosing the title of THE Armourer considering some of your company on this board) and don't have any ill will or the like. We are all just trying to help the fencing community here and I respect the knowledge you have to offer and all the effort you put into the web site you built. I guess we just disagree on a couple of things. Which of course means you have to be the one that’s wrong... (the last was a joke! Notice the smilies...)

[darius]

I was one of the people who b_tched publically about the PFTE tips on the Flickmasters. Barry got in contact with me about the new tips, and I've been testing them out for a long while.

They're excellent!!!

I've yet to trash a barrel due to an inability to remove the screws. Even with the Uhlmann V2 barrels, this happens, since the screws get destroyed. The countersunk screws are great.

So far, none of them have failed weight tests (one of my initial problems with the old tips) or experienced any problems other than the run-of-the-mill "needs-a-bit-of-cleaning". The barrels do get dented from flicks which land on a guard or blade, but unlike the german barrels, the dents don't seem to affect the tip.

I would easily recommend them. The only barrier (to me) has been the cost/annoyance of ordering overseas, which has been removed. Thanks, guys!

darius

[Craig]

Darius and Cville:

Can you put your new review on the points over in the review section. It still has the reviews prior to the redesign there.

Foil point complete super PTFE coated barrel (incl wire):

Thanks,
Craig

[VorpalCat]

Originally Posted by TheArmourer

BTW It may interst you to know that IMHO stands for "in my honest opinion". I believe you may have one of those as well.
And BTW stands for "by the way". Just in case! ;-)

Minor threadjack: It typically stands for 'in my humble opinion' (as opposed to IMNSHO). FWIW. Now if you'll excuse me, I must be off to find another nit to pick.......

[TheArmourer]

(Appologies for continued hijack.)
Truce. Glad we're getting that cleared up.

For the record, "www.thearmourer" came long before the tag I use here and it was intended initially for the small uk club I fence at. (The fact that it's got international aproval is an overwhelming consequence of the nature of the www.) It is no way intended to be a sign of any feeling of superiority over anyone else, least of all many of the extremely knowledgable people I am learning form here. I'm the armourer at my club, my website (for them) is the armourer, my related email adress is the armourer, it made sense to keep the association here.

[downunder]

i adore the leon paul epee tips, just used them for a World Cup in portugal, and they survived admirably.

[sword_fixer]

You could use this picture for the review instead of the catalogue pic. In cutaway it shows the longer travel of the GT Point, as well as the internal workings.

http://home.btconnect.com/FatclownFi.../GTFoiltip.jpg

Chris Wheeler
Not THE ARMOURER but a member of the BFA Armoury Team
and qualified Armouer as passed by the BFA Armourers Guild.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by Craig

Darius and Cville:

Can you put your new review on the points over in the review section. It still has the reviews prior to the redesign there.

Foil point complete super PTFE coated barrel (incl wire):

Thanks,
Craig

Sorry - That URL was to the old foil point no longer in production.

Here is the link to the new foil point in the Reviews section:

Leon Paul GT Ultra Foil Point Reviews

Cheers,
Craig