Teaching flick hits?

[JackSparrow]

My question is should you do it? If you start teaching flick hits to beginners will it be at the expense of their basic technique? Maybe it's better to teach the flick hit to more experienced fencers who have already got a good grasp of the basics, or maybe you think fencers should be left to pick it up on their own if they are going to learn it at all.

I know this thread is going to make me seem like I consider the flick to be a bad-habit, which isn't the case (honest!) I just know that I would have severe reservations about introducing flick hits to an inexperienced fencer.

[raffles]

Wait for them to learn and practice flicking themselves on their own first.When they are starting to become successful with it during bouting, slowly introduce exercises in your lessons.Wait much longer for epee.

[noodle]

only teach flicks to fencers who have a strong grasp of the basics.
and even then, you probably shouldn't teach them to foilists anymore as they're virtually useless at the moment. they're much more effective in epee now, ironically.

[whtouche]

From what I have heard, good flicks done by people who aren't intimidated by the new timings still work and are still viable in certain situations. They are obviously less useful now and cant be used to score anywhere on your opponant any time, but they're far from 'virtually useless' I think.

[noodle]

i said virtually because if you compare the fact that flicks went from a viable attack from any position to anywhere on the lame to a find-the-right-time-and-maybe-slide-it-in shot to an artificially reduced target area, its usefullness is dramatically smaller. you're much safer doing a well timed straight attack if you have the opening.

[JackSparrow]

The flick to the body was less affected by the new timings than the flick to back.

[CvilleFencer]

I agree with what has been stated above. I would wait a least until the student had a very good grasp of all 8 parries, disengage, circular, bind, coupe, seeding and pries de fer (sp?) attacks and parries, a good tactical ability to analyze his opponent on the strip, good distance/timing/tempo and the discipline and common sense to recognize that it is not a magic bullet, but just another tool in the box, and a much less useful one than it was just a few months ago.

I learned to flick in foil way to early and it sevely limited my progression as I became reliant upon it. Dont make the same mistake. Make sure the students know how to fence before the learn to flick.

[jBirch]

Gotta agree with what's been said before. You can't teach the flick sucessfully until your student has a really good grasp of basic distance and timing. Bladework progression, less important. You can't launch a flick without knowing how to make it land and the key to making it land is being able to fire it from the right distance at the right time (to the right target). Knowing 4 and 6 (and contre-6) plus beat and disengage is a prereq. More complicated bladework is not as useful at this point. After that, all that matters is the student's ability to find/keep the distance and attack at the right time. Once they can do that stuff well (attack, disengage, 4, 6/c6, beat at all distances and all tactical situations) then you can teach the flick.

As well, as soon as a student passes the intermediate mark (can control footwork and is starting to plan their responses) they generally start to see the flick used against them effectively in competition. Because it works, they figure that they have to use it against their opponents (and it makes them look cool and more advanced then their straight attacking contemporaries). Because coaches generally don't teach how to defend against the flick before teaching the flick itself (and the defense is actually counter-intuitive) students get lost and beaten and so figure that their coach is keeping the flick as an ultra-secret weapon of devastation. So they pick it up themselves and experiment until they can make it work. And then they keep trying, even though it only works about 10% of the time because they figure that they just haven't mastered the ultra-secret weapon of destruction. It's a stupid cycle but a lot of foilists have fallen in to it.

Teach the defense first (distance changes causing flat attacks), then teach the attack. The defense reinforces the basics (distance and timing) and frustrates the hell out of intermediate fencers who are just trying to get their flicks to land. This, in turn, builds confidence in the fencer and a return to the basics (since their contemporaries are now idiots for using the flick instead of geniuses).

Hope this helps.

[Craig]

What jBirch said.

Teach the basics first. You don't learn a spinning back kick your first karate lesson.

[achilleus]

The flick is one of many actions. It's effectiveness has been reduced by the new timings, although who knows if it will stay.

Introducing the basic mechanics of the action and the concept early are good things. They give the fencer they notion that it is but one tool to use, and can remove the fascination that many have with the action.

Focusing on the flick early is like taking a beginner and focusing on prime. A waste of time.

[Grasshopper]

I would argue against teaching flick hits to beginners AND intermediate fencers. Here is the pattern:

Newbie A starts - learns basics - improving - fences older kid B and gets trashed by flicks - newbie decides that to beat Older Kid B, he needs flick hits - Newbie A buys soft flicky blade and bends his tang - Newbie A's practice focuses on flicks - Newbie A comes to conclusion that "I DON'T NEED TO DISENGAGE BECAUSE I CAN COUPE AND HIT WITH FLICKS"

[Grasshopper]

Newbie A comes to conclusion that "I DON'T NEED TO DISENGAGE BECAUSE I CAN COUPE OVER MY OPP's TIP AND HIT WITH FLICKS" - plus the blade that I bought is so soft that all my disengages are like wobbly pasta noodles and are no longer effective - then, ironically, while Newbie A can now beat all of the other flicking mongrols in his club, he consistantly loses to all the fencers that actually know how to fence, not just flick.

My point: There is always a way to make a hit without a flick, from any distance. Until you learn that, there is no reason to start flicking because you don't understand the merits or demerits of doing so.

People flick because it is "cool" and a "shortcut".

Flicking is more of an abbreviation than a technique. It is like the difference between "I WILL" and "I'LL" or for our Southerner friends: "YOU ALL" and "Y'ALL".

Best to learn the long form first, and if you really need to abbreviate later, by all means go ahead.

[Dee EffEll]

I've sort of come to the conclusion that a properly executed flick attack works best as a first action in a series. I think of it as a prep of sort to "probe" the distance. It has to be deep enough to get a reaction, naturally. This means it has to be a simple blade action executed at the correct distance. Even, slow extension and advance to wrist is something I try to practice a lot. Many actions follow naturally from this, either accelerated attacks, or counter and retreat as the opponent makes a bad distance or tempo mistake. And of course, if you land the flick, so much the better.

My coach tells me to "toss the point" in to the target on the wrist. Very important advice when flicking to the inside, but I still have lots of difficulty flicking to the outside while keeping the outside line closed. Anyone have any advice on this action? It seems like the beat (four or counter 6) inside flick has a muchdifferent feel and "frequency" than the outside (likewise with beat 6 or 4.)

[Spike327]

I would say that, given the new timings and the relative inexperience of the students, starting off teaching them to flick to the top of the shoulder instead of the back might be better. It's less frustrating when you can see what you're aiming at and the top of the shoulder flick still goes with the new timings [usually]. You've just got to thump on that nice meaty region just beside the neck...

[davtsung]

With the new timings, I can still flick to the back, but it has to be executed with the hands higher up than before. Its better to try the shoulder/clavicle than the back; to the chest or abdomen, I have to flick harder than before to get it to stick flat. Consequent to all of this, the entire strategy of when or how I go about setting someone up for a flick has changed.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Easy. You dont teach flicks to students, and you yell at them when they do them. I have a student that went to a tournament and got devastated by the flick, and he came back wanting to try out his new toy against everyone. He didnt understand the proper place of a flick, let alone how to use it effectively. Not to mention he was far from strong enough to use it effectively. By the time a student can make a flick better than regular thrusts, they could have spent that time developing a solid thrusting game that would devastate most opponents. I've quit using the flick, and I've quit teaching my students the flick, because it takes too long to learn well, and there are better moves you can spend your time on. I paid the price for trying to learn how to flick, and it has set my development back 6 months of so. I'd be alot better if I hadn't of fooled around with flicks.

[davtsung]

Easy. You dont teach flicks to students, and you yell at them when they do them. I have a student that went to a tournament and got devastated by the flick, and he came back wanting to try out his new toy against everyone. He didnt understand the proper place of a flick, let alone how to use it effectively. Not to mention he was far from strong enough to use it effectively. By the time a student can make a flick better than regular thrusts, they could have spent that time developing a solid thrusting game that would devastate most opponents. I've quit using the flick, and I've quit teaching my students the flick, because it takes too long to learn well, and there are better moves you can spend your time on. I paid the price for trying to learn how to flick, and it has set my development back 6 months of so. I'd be alot better if I hadn't of fooled around with flicks.

To deny teaching your students a 'valid' technique is to short change them. Help them to appreciate the proper time and proper execution would better serve them than to not teach it at all. The flick can be devastating against beginners, and to learn how to 'defend' against them properly, they should have a grasp of what the technique entails.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

To deny teaching your students a 'valid' technique is to short change them. Help them to appreciate the proper time and proper execution would better serve them than to not teach it at all. The flick can be devastating against beginners, and to learn how to 'defend' against them properly, they should have a grasp of what the technique entails.

Since I've only been coaching for six months, I'll admit that I should teach them the flick and the proper defense. Touche. Maybe I'll teach the flick when I get more experience coaching.

[keith]

make sure you get the concept of broken time beaten into their heads - and that you can coach it properly.

sometimes it is better to focus on what you can coach well, rather than attempting to coach a 'complete' set of actions.

[Jesus Saves]

I think you should hold off on teaching them flick hits because they can barely hold the foil right at this age... I'm a different story thoguh cause im 13 but im a natural so you can't base your opinions off of me. But i would definetly wait till they have practiced all the paries and maneuvers that can help save you in a fencing match. The reason i am telling you this is because I learned the flick and got obsessed with it and practiacally ruined my foil and hadd to buy another foil for 30$ and was mad at that and not only did the flicks NOT help me in a fight they actually hurt my opponent and I dont know about you guys but i dont like hurting my opponenent so he draws blood..... I mean its a good trick and all but i would hold off till they get the hang of what actually fencing is.... So i would wait for about a year and if there still there they should be really good by then and then THATS when you teach them advanced moves like flicks and double circular paries that could either end a fight real quick with you winning or make you lose cause your sword is a peice of spaghetti


(I use the flick all the time but i am one of those kids that actually practices at home and i practice for about 3 hours on the flick so i am basicaly legendary at them for my age)