Historical Fencing?

[S. Hunter]

Does anyone here do historical fencing? I don't mean SCA stuff, I mean actually studying Cappo Ferry and using mock rapiers and such under a modern master. What is it like and how does it compare to sport fencing or classical fencing?

(Purely curious - I have no desire to do it, Just want to know how it compares.)

[Sildar]

Hi S,

I myself do quite a bit of it, as does Chris Umbs who also occasionally posts here. We both study under the same Maestros in fact, though we practice different styles of rapier.

In terms of how it compares to other forms of fencing, I'm not quite sure what you mean. It's pretty different from sport fencing, not terribly different from classical fencing, except that it requires a slightly different mentality in that it was not a purely duelling style, but also for self-defense in street fights.

It is difficult, though not in the same way that sport fencing is. The fencing tends to be more defensive and cautious rather than the kind of aggresive mentality one sees in sport fencing. Like anything else, it appeals to some people more than others, just depends what you're looking for.

[Christopher J Umbs]

Hello,

As Sildar said, I study with M. Martinez. In terms of HF, I study French and Italian rapier and smallsword. One of the main differences between CF and HF in practice is the use of the off hand either on its own or with a dagger or cloak. This causes attacks to be more cautious since, even if you deceive your opponent's blade parry, he can still make a second parry with the off hand. If you don't control the opponent's blade on the way in, you'll usually eat a stop thrust from the blade while the opponent parries with the hand. There's a lot of parrying with one blade while hitting with the other at the same time. All HF is usually fenced in the round, but for French rapier and French and Italian smallword and later Italian rapier, it's usually more efficient to stay toe to toe. Early Italian rapier/sidesword and all Spanish forms are more circular. The Assoc. for Historical Fencing uses a weighted scoring system - fence to 3 points, a thrust to the head or body is 3 points, a thrust to a limb or a cut anywhere is one point - no priority.

Chris

[Pelle]

so bascially the more likely a hit would be fatal someone should the sword be real, the more points is awarded? and what do you mean by "circular" do you mean the hand motions or the footwork? ie. walking around in a circle with your opponant also doing so, much like boxing.

thanks for the insight into other forms of fencing

[ls14evar]

Ive studied it a little bit. Its deffinately more cautious. Hits are treated as leathal, so attacking in such a way that you cant be hit, not just hit out of time is of paramount importance. Weapons tend to be much heavier and longer. Body voids become a possibility, and I found myself using more of a seperation of offense and defence between my dagger and rapier. Fishing for the wrist doesnt happen near as much, as its merely a disabling hit, and your opponent could sometimes still kill you even with a point or cut on their arm. (though thrusting THROUGH ring guards can be fun. )

[Sildar]

Originally Posted by Pelle

so bascially the more likely a hit would be fatal someone should the sword be real, the more points is awarded? and what do you mean by "circular" do you mean the hand motions or the footwork? ie. walking around in a circle with your opponant also doing so, much like boxing.

Yeah, the idea is to favor killing rather than wounding shots, while keeping the option of non-lethal attacks should the opportunity arise to do so without getting yourself killed in the process. It's rather embarrassing to get a thrust to the face when you take a shot at your opponents' arm or leg.

By circular I believe Chris is referring to the footwork; as he said, Spanish and most sidesword fencers tend to use more footwork that aims to gain an advantage by circling to one side or the other, thereby gaining an advantageous angle from which to attack. Some people ridicule it as ineffective, but one really only needs to get your opponent a little to one side or another of the line of direction in order to create a good opening, provided you know how to use your position. As you said, like a boxer.

[ls14evar]

Part of the idea with circular footwork is also that your opponet creates a roughly circular threat zone. An oblique or sideway advance has the effect of taking a path that is a tanget or short chord through the circle of threat. At the moment you are in their threat zone, you are attacking and forcing them to defend, and by the time they can reposte, you are out of their threat zone. All done with one smooth motion instead of having to move foreward, halt and back up to do the same sort of thing on a strip.

[Christopher J Umbs]

With the Italian and Spanish rapiers, you're talking about a 40" blade for most people so you don't see parry-riposte as much as stop thrust with opposition. It's more difficult to do attacks in countertime with the longer blades as well. I prefer French rapier with a 35" blade and using angular footwork to stay toe to toe with someone who wants to circle.

Chris

[striker]

Originally Posted by Christopher J Umbs

With the Italian and Spanish rapiers, you're talking about a 40" blade for most people so you don't see parry-riposte as much as stop thrust with opposition. It's more difficult to do attacks in countertime with the longer blades as well. I prefer French rapier with a 35" blade and using angular footwork to stay toe to toe with someone who wants to circle.

Chris

Chris,

I have a few questions if you do not mind.

1) Do historical fencers fence "as if" the blades were sharp ?

2) Can you please describe or provide a link that compares and contrasts
The French, Italian, and Spanish schools of rapier ?

3) Are any of the students who have studied with Maestro Martinez
teach in the West Coast? I live in the San Francisco Bay Area.
I personally do not know of any Salle in this area that is teaching
Historical Rapier fencing. However I think the folks in the Stage Combat
should know about it.

Best Regards,
S.

[Sildar]

Hi S,

1) Yes, we try to cultivate that mentality as much as possible. Fencing with blunts will never be the same as fencing with sharp weapons, but we try to treat the point (or edge) with respect whenever we fence.

2) See www.martinez-destreza.com - the weapons and styles page has a little information comparing the various arts, and there are three articles on the Spanish school in particular.

3) I am not yet an authorized instructor, but I have studied at the Academy and I will eventually be teaching on a professional level. I live in Arcata, about five hours north of you. We sometimes bring Maestro Martinez out here for seminars; for example every summer we host a week long rapier camp. If you are seriously interested in seeing more of what we do, PM me and we can discuss this further...

[Christopher J Umbs]

Striker,

I dug up an old post I made here awhile back that should answer some of your questions.
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The Italian style we practice is a mid 17th century style while the French style is a 19th century style therefore the blades themselves are somewhat different. When I’m doing Italian rapier, I use a 40” double-wide epee blade. When I’m doing French rapier, it’s a 35” epee blade (both on cup hilts). The Spanish blade is also 40”. I should mention that these blade lengths are for somebody of my height. Somebody shorter would use a shorter blade.

The difference between the blades means that certain actions are more efficient for each style. The balance and weight of the 40” means that ‘two time’ (dui tempi) actions are more difficult to do. So, instead of doing a parry/riposte which is two actions (parry followed by a riposte) you would do a stop thrust with opposition which is a single time action (stesso tempo) that combines offense and defense in one action. With the 35” a dui tempi action like a parry riposte can be done in the same space of time that a stop thrust can be done so it uses far more dui tempi actions. Ken has written a good article on this subject at: http://www.ahfi.org/articles/art4.htm

We practice all of these arts as ‘internal arts’ meaning that the breath and internal energy of the body is used as opposed to just muscular force. The 3 Chinese internal arts are taijiquan, xingyiquan, and baguazhang. Without pushing the similarities too far…

French – Taiji – soft, defensive – lure the opponent in until they over commit to an attack and can not get away from the riposte

Italian – Xingyi – hard, offensive and counter-offensive, if you have to parry that means that you have lost control of the flow of the bout and allowed the opponent to attack and was not able to respond with a stesso tempo counter.

Spanish – Bagua – circular, and I’ll turn to Maestro Martinez here… “The difference being that the Diestro secures his defensive position by moving away from an attack rather than attacking into an attack. It is similar to the manner in which a bullfighter deals with the attacking bull. As the animal attacks the bullfighter veers away at an angle, steps around from the onslaught, and thrusts the "banderillas" (long decorated darts) or "estoque" (sword) into the bull in one fluid sequence of movements that constitute this particular technique.”

[Cavatione]

I'm happy to read someone who studies with Maestro Martinez.

I actualy study with Maestro Andrea Lupo Sinclair in Italy, and met M.Martinez during the last FISAS international meeting in italy. I must say he's quite a character!

[striker]

Originally Posted by Christopher J Umbs

Striker,

I dug up an old post I made here awhile back that should answer some of your questions.........................

Chris and Sildar,

Thanks to both of you for detailed answers. It certaily helped me
in my understanding of historical fencing.

Best Regards,
S.