Ratings Explanation

[Switch]

OK here's the deal- I'm a double C in foil and epee. How do you explain to someone totally unfamiliar to fencing (say, a teacher or friend) what ratings mean and where you stand with your particular rating? I've tried saying things like "Well, and A is usually olympic level, a B is pretty good...." But it really doesnt come across well. Any suggestions?

[whtouche]

OK here's the deal- I'm a double C in foil and epee. How do you explain to someone totally unfamiliar to fencing (say, a teacher or friend) what ratings mean and where you stand with your particular rating? I've tried saying things like "Well, and A is usually olympic level, a B is pretty good...." But it really doesnt come across well. Any suggestions?

I assume it doesn't come across well because it's not really true.
Sure, all of the olympians are A rated, but there are many more A rated fencers who aren't quite olympians.
I just tell people on a scale of A thru E, A is the highest, E the lowest while everyone starts at U - unrated. Most people don't attain ratings, or at least high ones - so a C is pretty well above average. Beyond that you could tell them that past the rating system are national rankings, with national points usually counting more than an A rating.
After that it gets more complicated with age groups and such.

[Switch]

Yeah, I could say that the difference between your average A and the Olympic A is that one of the two probably has a boatload of International and National Points. Wich outdoes any rating any day

[Switch]

btw, what are you rated?

[greenchick]

How do you explain to someone totally unfamiliar to fencing (say, a teacher or friend) what ratings mean and where you stand with your particular rating?

I've had better luck explaining it in terms of competitions than fencers -- "see, if you won a little local tournament, you might get an 'E', and if you won a bigger tournament with a bunch of fencers who were already rated, you'd get, say, a 'C', but if you won a national tournament, you'd get an 'A', and the next few finishers get a 'B', and so on down the line...." When I try to explain it in terms of individual skill levels, I invariably get "so it's like getting a belt in martial arts?" in response.

[Purple Fencer]

I usually say it's somewhat like martial arts belts....a U is a white belt and an A is a black belt...they can fill in the rest themselves.

Of course...there are differing degrees of black belt in some forms, just as in fencing there are A's and there are A'S

[Victor]

I usually just say I'm one of the top three fencers in the state, and leave it at that.

True or false, at least it's something they can understand.

[CvilleFencer]

I usually use a martial arts comparison as well but say something more like an E is a first degree black belt and an a would be like a 5th Dan or black belt. Not a direct comparison but it helps people to understand it, and saying an E is like a white belt is just not accurate at all, considering only about 7-10% of fencers ever get rated.

[whtouche]

I'm a C in sabre, E in foil, U in epee.
Hopefully the sabre rating will be getting adjusted soon.

[bg0687]

I usually use a martial arts comparison as well but say something more like an E is a first degree black belt and an a would be like a 5th Dan or black belt. Not a direct comparison but it helps people to understand it, and saying an E is like a white belt is just not accurate at all, considering only about 7-10% of fencers ever get rated.

That is completely false. USFA statistics have shown that roughly 30-40% of all fencers are rated. It has been shown in posts before. C's and above make up roughly 6-9% of all fencers. I would say that U's, E's and D's are like lower belts and then when you get to C's you start with the Black Belt because that is the Div I level.

[SouthPaw]

Div I is B's and higher, not C's

But I do agree with you, saying that an E is a black belt is a huge overstatement =P

edit - I've been proved wrong! =P

[Montoya]

According to the NAC application, A's, B's, and C's are eligible for Div I

[Inquartata]

Yes, Div I is still open to Cs. There had been some discussion about limiting it to Bs and above this year, but for some reason it didn't happen.

[germanguy]

.....

[CvilleFencer]

That is completely false. USFA statistics have shown that roughly 30-40% of all fencers are rated. It has been shown in posts before. C's and above make up roughly 6-9% of all fencers. I would say that U's, E's and D's are like lower belts and then when you get to C's you start with the Black Belt because that is the Div I level.

That is completely idiotic. I am so offended that I have actually had to do math and look up real facts, and for that you have earned my everlasting enmity. Since you are an epee fencer and therefore in theory a scholar and one who seeks the truth I will try to educate you instead of just saying mean things about you in l33t. Okay, some of these numbers are extrapolated, and most are old, but here goes:

Number of USFA fencers in the country: around 18000
Number of fencers that are rated in any weapon (as of 2003 report) 7586
Number of fencers in the country (assuming that about 20% of clubs have competitive menbers of the USFA, although my gut tells me the percentage is even lower than that): 78000
Percentage of rated fencers (this number is wrong, and it assumes that every rated fencer is a seperate person and does not take into account all of the people who have ratings in 2 or more weapons, but just for the sake of argument I will deal with the higher percentage at the moment) %10.39

The number of USFA fencers as of the 2003 report (most likely with 02 figures) per weapon and so forth:

Class Epee Foil Sabre
A 116 211 83
B 281 353 160
C 534 534 295
D 876 666 466
E 1336 934 741
U 10982 11427 12380

I think one could make a convincing argument that by the time most people have started competing they are at least in the red to brown belt level. After all white/ yellow are pretty much targets that are still learning to stand and attack. I have never been to a tourney where the person I was fencing did not at least know how to hold a sword. Also, most TKD academies I have ran across generally say one to three years to get your black belt, and that is also a reasonable time for the average person to get their rating in their first weapons (I know their are exceptions, and I even happend to be one, but on average...). Anyway, have to jump out, may defend my statement more if need be.

[sabreman]

>>"Well, and A is usually olympic level, a B is pretty good...."

I was a A for a time but was at my best as a B level fencer. It really is more about how you do in NACs and international competitions. For example a fencer could only go to NACs and international competitions and make top 32s but never get a A. Also today it is much easier to get a letter ranking in mens sabre then back in the 1990s. I think this might have to do with mixed competitions.

[esskreemr]

Considering that a 1st degree black belt is the first master's rank, I would not even draw that comparison to an A. They have to do tests and pass in front of a commitee. But for results at competitions you do not really need to have a black belt to do well.

It depends on what Martial Art you study. In many martial arts that use the belt system, a black belt "merely" indicates that you have required a sufficient skill level to being to learn the true "art" portion. In quite a few arts, 2-3 years is sufficient to demonstrate the skills necessary to attain a dan (black belt).

From a foil perspective, if I had to compare belt rankings with fencing ratings, I would place a black belt at around a "C" level, with a high "D" rating being close to a brown belt.

The primary difference is that one is a attained by demonstrating proficiency in a competitive arena, the other is attained (normally) by demonstrating the ability to perform the basic functions.

There are people who have tried to apply a "belt-like" system to fencing. I'm interested to know if this has helped retain people who do not attent competitions. I think having both a competition rating (letter grade) and a skillset classification would benefit retention. Has anyone had experience with this? Perhaps we need to form a National Fencing Classification Association to certify fencing classifications, just a thought...

http://www.whitman.edu/fencing/ranking.html
http://www.royalarts.org/Forms/ranki...tem%20RAFA.pdf
http://nadi.calpoly.edu/~fencing/Doc...bus/intro.html

[oiuyt]

Yes, Div I is still open to Cs. There had been some discussion about limiting it to Bs and above this year, but for some reason it didn't happen.

Limiting to just A's and B's has never been brought to the BoD. Even in July 2002, when it was a part of the HPC's preliminary report to the BoD (for a change in the 2002-2003 season), the recommendation was changed to increase the minimum to C rather than B before it was officially presented. It has since been announced (at least) twice that the change to B would happen, but this change has not officially been presented as even a first-hearing discussion item, much less something that would be voted on. I believe that this is because off-line discussions have repeatedly shown that such a vote would be lost and that a majority of the board supports C's allowed in D1 competitions.

-B :)

[sabreman]

>>
The primary difference is that one is a attained by demonstrating proficiency in a competitive arena, the other is attained (normally) by demonstrating the ability to perform the basic functions.
>>

I agree. Fencing ratings are based on competition results although I have heard that in Italy they sometimes give an award to the most stylish fencer. LOL!

[Army Fencer]

http://www.whitman.edu/fencing/ranking.html
http://www.royalarts.org/Forms/ranki...tem%20RAFA.pdf
http://nadi.calpoly.edu/~fencing/Doc...bus/intro.html

Wow. Those systems exceedingly odd.