The Definition of Irony

[telkanuru]

And if we suffer another terrorist attack (likely) and the country does it's little rally 'round the president thing again? And if you're saying that the Bush administration will not manipulate the blind patriotism of the people, than I would say you've forgotten about the USAPATRIOT act and Iraq. Things change rather quickly.

And 5 months != large amount of time.

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by Philistine

Actually, according to the article there was a drive for members in 1979. That was when the current Selective Service System was started, and that was when the bulk of the 10-12,000 volunteers signed up. They're now done with their terms.



Touche.

--Philistine

Again,

"Despite those explanations, the public notice by the Pentagon marked the first formal request to re-establish draft boards since the draft was abolished in 1973."

[Philistine]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

Again,

"Despite those explanations, the public notice by the Pentagon marked the first formal request to re-establish draft boards since the draft was abolished in 1973."

I saw the quote. It is simply wrong.

The Vietnam war ended in 1973. The requirement to register was suspended in 1975. It was reinstated, in 1979 (effective 1980). At that time draft boards were filled with volunteers (10-12,000 of them) That's not a formal request to re-establish draft boards? The boards were established--attrition had whittled down their ranks. The request was not to re-establish them, but to man the volunteer positions after the 20-year term of the existing volunteers had expired.

--Philistine

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

If you read what I posted, you noticed the gov't started letting draft boards fall by the wayside in 1973, and there was therefore certainly no drive for members in 1979. The excuse seems convenient and flawed.

Also, I did not attack something I cited, I attacked something Phillistine cited.

Last, it's all nice for you to be complacient and condecending towards my paranoia about the draft; I don't suppose you're exactly draftable age. Things are slightly different on my side of the fence.

Hey, I'm your age - but I'm not worried about it...why are you?

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by Soldier

Hey, I'm your age - but I'm not worried about it...why are you?

touche

Probly has something to do with already being enlisted. Don't get me wrong, if I were to be drafted, I would serve my country and not run to canada, because I'm a citizen, and that's my respostibility, but frankly, I'd really, really rather not.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

If you read what I posted, you noticed the gov't started letting draft boards fall by the wayside in 1973, and there was therefore certainly no drive for members in 1979.

No. The positions were filled by persons serving 20-year terms. That they were inactive is immaterial----they are STILL inactive.

Also, I did not attack something I cited, I attacked something Phillistine cited.

The passage I quoted was from one of the links you posted above. Or were you referring to some conclusion from the Snopes piece about the referenced information?

Last, it's all nice for you to be complacient and condecending towards my paranoia about the draft; I don't suppose you're exactly draftable age. Things are slightly different on my side of the fence.

Ah, so you are interested not in the truth or in probabilities or in intentions. You are making decisions solely out of self-centered fear of an imagined future fate? And no amount of evidence that said fear is overblown or even wholly misplaced is going to have any effect? Hey, I'm afraid of being killed in a car accident, but I'm not going to stop driving, or vote for leaders on the basis of their positions on automobile and highway safety, or even to credit cynically-peddled scary rumors that someone might be getting ready, someday soon, secretly, to legalize driving while intoxicated...

After 9-11, I would have enlisted voluntarily if I hadn't known I would be rejected---I think you have to be under 30. Not everything is about rational, or irrational, self-interest.

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

Last, it's all nice for you to be complacient and condecending towards my paranoia about the draft; I don't suppose you're exactly draftable age. Things are slightly different on my side of the fence.

The Consitituion states that the 'unorganized millita' consists of all male citizens and those declaring their intention to become citizens between the ages of 16 and 45. So, if the government really wanted to........

("able bodied, at least 17 and younger than 45" Hey! only 5 weeks to go!)

[L.O.A.S.]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

Last, it's all nice for you to be complacient and condecending towards my paranoia about the draft; I don't suppose you're exactly draftable age. Things are slightly different on my side of the fence.

Beat the draft....Enlist. Although joining the Military reserves is not what it used to be, I hear that the Coast Guard Reserve is not a bad place to do some service time. Military service is a character building experience, even in the shallow water navy.

[telkanuru]

I could even follow the brilliant and honourable example set by our Commander in Chief [/SARCASM]

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by L.O.A.S.

Beat the draft....Enlist. Although joining the Military reserves is not what it used to be, I hear that the Coast Guard Reserve is not a bad place to do some service time. Military service is a character building experience, even in the shallow water navy.

Who knows, maybe he'd even get assigned to a swift boat and thus be set on the inevitable path to being President some day.

[Maeve_Mari]

Originally Posted by Schiavona

The Consitituion states that the 'unorganized millita' consists of all male citizens and those declaring their intention to become citizens between the ages of 16 and 45. So, if the government really wanted to........

("able bodied, at least 17 and younger than 45" Hey! only 5 weeks to go!)

and still "able bodied" ?
ROFL, but just joking!

[Maeve_Mari]

Originally Posted by Schiavona

The Consitituion states that the 'unorganized millita' consists of all male citizens and those declaring their intention to become citizens between the ages of 16 and 45. So, if the government really wanted to........

("able bodied, at least 17 and younger than 45" Hey! only 5 weeks to go!)

and still "able bodied" at 45?
ROFL, but just joking!

[L.O.A.S.]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Who knows, maybe he'd even get assigned to a swift boat and thus be set on the inevitable path to being President some day.

Don't forget the video camera to record those "heroic" events.

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

But just as clearly, Kerry's predictions of a "January surprise" do constitute a similar and just as deplorable attempt to play on the fears of a certain sector of the electorate to his own benefit by making patently unsupportable accusations. Not unlike the intimations of a draft coming right around the corner...

Yet you seem to nod vigorously at the first and wave away the second as "ridiculous". Why is that?

OK, before we start this, I'm sure we'll need to agree on what the term "draft" refers to.

IMO the term draft is used to refer to "mandatory military service" or compulsory service. Any arguements here?

Second, what January surprise are you referring to Inq? I'm just checking...

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Yes. Your version was "Bush is running on, 'If you elect Kerry, terrorists will kill you! Vote Bush.'" Which is exaggerated because no one has said that so pointedly, much less in those exact words, and misattributed, because AFAIK such statements have been limited to Cheney, and Bush himself has not said such things. ( He has said that he thinks he can keep us "safer" than Kerry, which I don't think amounts to the same thing as "'If you elect Kerry, terrorists will kill you!" )

The ticket is Bush/Cheney not Bush/Bush, you vote for one, you vote for the other. Perhaps I missed your point, if you have one.

"It's absolutely essential that eight weeks from today, on Nov. 2, we make the right choice, because if we make the wrong choice then the danger is that we'll get hit again and we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States," Cheney told supporters at a town-hall meeting Tuesday.

Under the same microscope that I'm sure you'll hold the above statement to, find one statement where Kerry says that Bush will reinstate the draft, not stump speech where Kerry mentions a "great potential of a draft."

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

IMO the term draft is used to refer to "mandatory military service" or compulsory service. Any arguements here?

Compulsory, involuntary, and drawn from the civilian population. One cannot draft a volunteer or a serving soldier.

Second, what January surprise are you referring to Inq? I'm just checking...

Take your pick, but in this particular case I was referring to the dark intimation that the Administration is plotting to reinstitute the active draft of eligible civilians should the electorate be so incautious as to reelect it...

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

The ticket is Bush/Cheney not Bush/Bush, you vote for one, you vote for the other.

Right. And where was it that you mentioned Cheney in your original post, again? Oh, right, you just said "Bush". I thought as much.

Perhaps I missed your point, if you have one.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if you had.

Under the same microscope that I'm sure you'll hold the above statement to, find one statement where Kerry says that Bush will reinstate the draft, not stump speech where Kerry mentions a "great potential of a draft."

I'm sorry---where did I lead you to believe that I was inviting you to set the parameters of the argument so tightly that they excluded statements damaging to your case? Or that I was inclined to accept your limitations?

The whole statement was:

"With George Bush, the plan for Iraq is more of the same and the great potential of a draft. Because if we go it alone, I don't know how you do it with the current overextension" of the military"

And it says what it says. Add to it this:

Answering a question about the draft that had been posed at a forum with voters, Kerry said: "If George Bush were to be re-elected, given the way he has gone about this war and given his avoidance of responsibility in North Korea and Iran and other places, is it possible? I can't tell you."

( from [quote]http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/ne...04-370178.html )

Add to THAT the emails that have been going around to college students and others from groups like the DCCC, the campaign-trail speeches by Kerry surrogates like Cleland and Dean making the draft claim outright.

Add to THAT:

Special-interest groups backing Kerry are fueling rumors of a draft in a second Bush term. MoveOnStudentAction.org is launching a nationwide campus "Feel a Draft?" campaign to demand an exit strategy in Iraq and urge Bush to detail a specific plan to avoid the draft.

( from http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pb...95/1001&lead=1 )

If there is no difference between what Cheney says and what Bush means and intends, then there is none between what Kerry's surrogates say and what he means and intends. But that isn't an essential part of the case. Kerry's remarks come far closer to averring that Bush will have to institute a draft than Cheney's do to averring that Kerry's election will prompt more terrorist attacks...and certainly closer than Cheney's comments do to putting those words in Bush's mouth. Bush can't control everything Cheney says; but Kerry certainly can control everything that Kerry says.

[Epee_Pox]

Okay, it's been several months since the election. Where's this "draft" thing that Kerry and MTV and all the hysterical demagogues were promising us?

So just who, exactly, was misleading voters about this?

[Have At You]

Oh hush.

It was a useful line that served its purpose of keeping the poorly-informed in the Kerry camp. I'm sure the Republicans had equally untrue propaganda about what a Kerry administration might have done, which kept equally poorly-informed people in the Bush camp.