Timing

[S. Hunter]

Ok, My situation: I've been trying to understand the timing (epee) of a bout, and how if flows, and how to break it, but even through lessons and fencing I just cannot pick it up. I just don't understand timing at all in epee (In sabre I think I get it very well), I don't understand how a broken timing attack works (epee again), and I don't understand how bouncing effects it.

So, to the point, can anyone here try to explain epee timing to a sabre fencer using just words?

[telkanuru]

I'm not sure I can answer the question completely, but I'll try. You ask a good deal

I find epee timing to be a mash of foil and sabre, with a little extra thrown in. There are always long drawn out periods of setting up attacks followed by 2 seconds of lightning action. Epee is also a game about expectations. Getting the point in epee requires your opponent reacting to you in exactly the way you expect. The lack of ROW gives no room for error in this regard. There is no real drawn out footwork changes as you would see in the foil march or one of those sabre attacks that starts slow and ends with a flunge, mainly because you cannot force your opponent to continuously move backward. To me, this is where the bounce comes in. It has a twofold purpose to any fencer's game: distance and mobility. For the latter, it is much easier to move very quickly from bouncing than it is from normal footwork. This, I think is the main point. Epee differs from foil and sabre mainly in the amount of time the fencer must go from no motion to light speed, due to the lack of ROW. As for the bounce and distance, in epee the smallest fraction of an inch can be the difference between a successful wrist hit and naught. Bouncing allows you to vary distance by that fraction of an inch without your opponent noticing a change in your foot tempo.

I think that makes sense

[ThornOfTheBlood]

flunge

HAHA SEAN HE SAID THE F WORD!! (inside joke)

[JAnthony]

I'm in a similar position - college saber followed by many years of almost nothing, now trying to learn epee. In saber, I had a pretty good stop cut and attach into preparation, timing the "lightning" movement for just when my opponent was starting their attack.

So far, this is the most comfortable and productive approach for me in epee, too. I can either go for an opening as soon as I see it, or go for the blade to break up my opponent's intentions. Now I have to learn to do a better job of trapping blades and otherwise protecting myself while I counter.

A caveat: It's working against other novices, but YMMV against more experienced fencers who might be laying out the bait for you...

[garyhayenga]

Originally Posted by S. Hunter

Ok, My situation: I've been trying to understand the timing (epee) of a bout, and how if flows, and how to break it, but even through lessons and fencing I just cannot pick it up. I just don't understand timing at all in epee (In sabre I think I get it very well), I don't understand how a broken timing attack works (epee again), and I don't understand how bouncing effects it.

So, to the point, can anyone here try to explain epee timing to a sabre fencer using just words?

In Foil and Sabre the attacker, beginning a sound action (one done from correct distance and with correct technique), has the advantage, since the opponent *must* stop it or make it miss completely they have to react soon enough that the attacker, being prepared for the 2 most likely responses, can simply finish the attack in the appropriate pre-planned manner. If the attacker does not get one of these responses he breaks off the attack and switches to his defensive plan.

In Epee the one who commits first to an action is *wrong.* The combination of the lock-out and the double-touch means that you must make your opponent commit first. The time you have to hit any particular target is much shorter and the opponent can remove that target and counter-attack at the same time and you won't usually have time to switch to a different target.

This means that:

A) You must still have a couple of primary options and follow-up offensive/defensive plan (the opposite of your primary options).

B) You cannot focus almost exclusively on the primary options, since there are so many more targets to hit if your opponent exposes one accidentally you must remain ready to hit it. This leads to a much more zen state of mind during Epee fencing.

C) If you can get your opponent to commit to an action first within hitting distance you have the advantage in Epee, removing the target, wether with feet, body or blade , and the opportunity for attack-on-preparation or counter-attack while they try to recover gives a very high percentaqe advantage.

D) Epee is all about playing the percentages. You can make an action that has only a 20% chance of succeeding, but only if your opponent only has 10% chance of hitting you. You cannot make actions that have a 50% chance of succeeding if your opponent has an almost equal chance to hit you.

E) Getting the opponent to refuse to do anything is just as good as getting them to do something.

F) Bouncing is a way to disguise exactly how far away you are going to be. It has the drawback that it limits the power of an advance-lunge or explosive jump backward, but it's advantage is in disguising when or wether you are going backwards or forwards. Thus the opponent cannot tell when you *have* committed to an action and thus making a mistake.

gary hayenga

[jBirch]

I disagree.

In epee, as in all weapons, you need to prepare the attack with footwork and feints. You still have a point that must get to your opponent so your actions, once decided on, must be more comitted. The difference is that you can not ignore a counter-attack because you have the protection of ROW. You must deal with it before it materialises. You do this by opposition, disengages, feints and hitting to nearest target.

Because of this, footwork/bladework timing and good distance is increadibly important in epee. You must time your attack such that your opponent is off-balance and unable to counter attack. This is why you see a period of not much happening followed by a lightning fast exchange usually presaged by numerous feints and distance changes. You are trying to time your action so that your opponent can not reply and is at their most disadvantageous. The timing in epee is more committed then in foil and sabre, while the footwork and bladework are less so because you are trying to coax your opponent into a bad position.

Bouncing gives you the ability to set up a rhythm that you can then break, setting your opponent up for mistakes in distance and timing. Breaks to this rhythm are much more apparent and so opponents are much more sensitive to them. This is the timing advantage: you can cause your opponent to freeze and then react. It also makes the bouncer more vulnerable in terms of their own timing as they must first unbounce before doing something else. So deep feints against the bouncer often provoke instinctive responses. The bouncing footwork though, does give the bouncer more mobility and flexibility of response. At any point in the bounce you are doing something productive: moving up and away (keeping those hard to hit small targets moving) or digging in and springing. The problem comes in changing this response if you have an opponent that can take advantage of it.

And bouncing, by the way, never has you leaving the ground.

Hope this helps.

[garyhayenga]

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing about.

A competent opponent cannot be coaxed into a bad position, he must be convinced to do something while you remain uncommitted to the action he is reacting to, enabling you to take the blade and hit or hit the open target while he is still reacting to your previous action.

Feints, second intention bladework and invitations, with the appropriate footwork, are what you use to draw a committed reaction from the opponent.

gary hayenga