Possible error with new FIE foil timing specifications

[MTD]

Originally Posted by JEC

You will need a high frequency stimulator to close the circuit and a detecting device (amplifier/ohmmeter) with a sampling rate of at least 1000 Hz to detect differences of 2-3 msec (sampling rate of more than 2000 Hz is needed for 1 msec differences).

Not so. You need half this much equipment.

You describe having both a device to create very brief events and a device to measure them. You only need the former. You already have the latter -- it's the scoring box itself.

If you want to measure (for example) the foil on-target "debounce" time on the left side, short B and C on the right side (simulating the presence of the foil on the right), short B on the left side to A on the right side (simulating the contact of the tip of left to the lamé of right), and connect your "event generator" between B and C on the left side (to simulate the tip switch of the left foil). Have the "event generator" create a brief open circuit. See if the scoring box responds. Adjust the "event generator" for several different interesting times in the range of 2 ms through 15 ms to find the length of time where the box starts reporting an on target hit. As long as your "event generator" is calibrated, no measurements are needed beyond what the scoring box reports.

I already figured out ways to design the "event generator", at one extreme as a self-contained device with crystal-controlled timing and external controls (e.g., thumbwheel switches) to specify its behavior in terms of a number of steps from the crystal-controlled clock, and at the other extreme as just an interface device for the parallel port of a computer where the computer itself and software would provide clocking.

Actually, that's not true. I never decided what the actual output device of the "event generator" would be. For slow-speed work, an old-fashioned electromechanical relay would be perfect, as it is electrically controlled, provides electrical isolation, and is either approximately zero or approximately infinity ohms (just like the point of a foil). But, it doesn't seem ideal for fast work where one starts to notice the contact bounce in the relay. Substituting some sort of solid state relay for an actual relay would then make the "event generator" dependent on some particular acceptable range of voltage, and resistive load in series with the solid state relay, requiring one to know more about the actual characteristics of the scoring box than if using a relay.

[R. Exnicios]

I have discovered that a test device to test 12,13,14,15,20ms etc is beyound my ability. I have contracted with an engineer in Atlanta to design on and get me a quote. problem is to test the time of off target vs on target are totally different animals so if the off target time is to be different from on target I thing my test device will not work.

I'll keep everyone informed of my progress.

Cheers

[DHCJr]

Mr. Massik has shown me that I didn't read the USFA requirements as well as I thought. Qualifiers for this year are NOT required to use the new timing. See an excerpt from the proposal by Derek Cotton that was passed by the USFA. Note the date.

3) If the FIE decides to make a permanent change in the timing of
the scoring apparatus then, from September 1, 2005 all National events
and Qualifying Events WILL BE required to use the new timing boxes.
Divisional and Sectional events will be allowed to use the old scoring
equipment, but must make the fact clear on the entry forms. National
team selection points will only be earned at events using the new timing
boxes.

[oiuyt]

Or to quote the ENITRE motion, given that part 3 is NOT the only applicable portion....

Motion (Mr. Cotton) The Fencing Officials Commission recommends the following for the 2004-2005 season beginning October 1, 2004 (details submitted by Bill Oliver of specific details from the FOC):

a. All National events and National Qualifying Events will be run with the new timing scoring boxes.

b. All Divisional, sectional, and Collegiate competitions can be run using either the old or the new timing boxes but the equipment must be the same for all fencers (with the possibilities of using old equipment for the competition, and using the new timing boxes for the finals.) This information must be brought to the attention of the participants prior to the event.

c. If the FIE decides to make a permanent change in the timing of the scoring apparatus then, from September 1, 2005, all National tournaments and Qualifying Events will be required to use the new timing in the scoring boxes. Divisional and Sectional competitions will be allowed to use the old scoring equipment, but must make the fact clear in their schedule of competitions. National team selection points will be only earned at events using the new timing boxes.

These motions will take effect immediately, and the new timing will be used for the Atlanta Cadet-Youth NAC.

Please note part (a).

In the discussion it was specified that for National Qualifying Events there is the possibility of using old equipment for the competition and then using the new timing boxes for the finals (rd of 8 and beyond in DE’s, finals pool in pool-format) as long as the equipment is the same for all fencers and the timings are pre-announced.

The quoted text above is the (amended) motion that was approved. Part (a) took effect 10/2/04.

-B :)

[DHCJr]

But according to Mr. Massik AND 3, Divisions are NOT required to use the new timing. The rules went into effect immediately, but the implementation REQIRED use was put in September 2005.

This is not a conflict. Part of the rules, such as informing that you are using the old timing is immediate. Section 3 is September 2005, IF the FIE makes the rules PERMANENT.

[Insipiens]

And apparently the Italians don't think the timings are going to last (and stayed away from the European U20 championships partly on that basis).

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

But according to Mr. Massik AND 3, Divisions are NOT required to use the new timing. The rules went into effect immediately, but the implementation REQIRED use was put in September 2005.

This is not a conflict. Part of the rules, such as informing that you are using the old timing is immediate. Section 3 is September 2005, IF the FIE makes the rules PERMANENT.

Either he or I is misremembering the content of the discussion. I remember it being explicit that qualifiers would be required to use the new timings for, at a minimum, the final round starting with the current season. There was discussion that having events done with the new timing at nationals meant that the qualifiers to those events shouldn't be done with some other timing.

I think that Michael's stance is more reasonable, and certainly works better for the local divisions. I just don't think it was what was discussed or what the text of the motion means. I'd be happy if what he says were what was actually the case.

By the reasoning that (c) dictates when (a) comes into effect, Atlanta, and all the rest of the NACs could be run on either timing this season, as long as the USFA announces which in advance (who at the USFA would make that determination? How much in advance?). I very much disagree that this is what was decided.

I think the motion and the interaction between (a) and (c) is poorly written. There's all kinds of confusion available as a result of this.

Mmmmm, glad I'm not running a division, a club, or trying to qualify for any events any time soon. :)

-B :)

[BOliver]

The USFA Operations Manual states:

(9) The qualifying competitions are considered the first rounds of the Nationals themselves.
The formats used in qualifying competitions are:
Ø by pools throughout; or
Ø by any format specified in the current Athlete Programs Handbook except any
format with first round byes.

As such, since Nationals (Div 1, 2, 3, age categories and JO's) are required to use the new timing, all qualifying competitions must use the new timings. Since it's not reasonable to require all divisions to utilize new boxes in every round, we determined that the final round would suffice.