Smaller steps against longer steps

**veeco** · 07-05-2002 10:11 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sciurus Rex:
A half-advance or half-retreat is exactly what those two words imply: Half of a full advance or a full retreat.

An advance is a forward movement of the body executed by moving the leading foot first and following with the rear foot, ending in an en guard position. A half-advance begins in the same way, but is not completed -- i.e. the trailing foot is left in its initial position, and the leading foot likely still has the toes slightly elevated.
<hr /></blockquote>No, what you are describing here is an appel, or if you push it a little more forward/longer, then it's a half-lunge. I know it doesn't make sense because if you think that in mathematical terms a half-advance should be just doing half of the actions of a regular advance, but it is not the way it's defined in fencing terms ;-)

A half-advance/half-step/whatever you want to call it, is the advance of the trailing foot while the front foot is left at it's place.

I don't hold the half-advance in disdain, on the contrary, I like it. I think it should an important part of any modern fencer's game.

[ 07-06-2002, 02:13 AM: Message edited by: veeco ]

**sabreur** · 07-06-2002 09:45 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by veeco:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sciurus Rex:
A half-advance or half-retreat is exactly what those two words imply: Half of a full advance or a full retreat.

An advance is a forward movement of the body executed by moving the leading foot first and following with the rear foot, ending in an en guard position. A half-advance begins in the same way, but is not completed -- i.e. the trailing foot is left in its initial position, and the leading foot likely still has the toes slightly elevated.
<hr /></blockquote>No, what you are describing here is an appel, or if you push it a little more forward/longer, then it's a half-lunge. I know it doesn't make sense because if you think that in mathematical terms a half-advance should be just doing half of the actions of a regular advance, but it is not the way it's defined in fencing terms ;-)

A half-advance/half-step/whatever you want to call it, is the advance of the trailing foot while the front foot is left at it's place.

I don't hold the half-advance in disdain, on the contrary, I like it. I think it should an important part of any modern fencer's game.<hr /></blockquote>Dude,

All I have to say is that my fencing master, Hungarian, with a Hungarian Masters diploma, teaches the half step. On the advance, it is the movement of the front leg.

Of course, he also teaches a very traditional advance, which I've described before.

It is a not an appel, which is where you pick up your front foot and slap it down in the same place, to make a sound (appel = call in French). You misdefined a ballestra earlier as being a tap with the ball of the front foot. A ballestra is either a jump forward, or a jump forward-lunge depending on who you are talking to. An appel is in place. A half advance or a half retreat is the first part of the movement.

You've probably never heard of a slide step either, which is a move commonly used by the
Russian sabre fencers. The best way to describe it is that it is the same sort of movement you might make if you wanted to slide on an icy sidewalk. Like the half advance, long and short steps, etc., it is a useful tool to change tempo.

I find it interesting that you dismiss the value of the half-step while admitting you've never heard of it. Try it. You might like it.

MR

**veeco** · 07-06-2002 10:39 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sabreur:

All I have to say is that my fencing master, Hungarian, with a Hungarian Masters diploma, teaches the half step. On the advance, it is the movement of the front leg.

<hr /></blockquote>Funny, because your original description is not the same as the one from Scurius, yet you seem now to think that his description is the right one now. What made you change your mind?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Of course, he also teaches a very traditional advance, which I've described before.

<hr /></blockquote>The "advance" that you described has nothing traditional. One of the first fencers to use it extensively that I know of was Romankov and he was brilliant using it. And I betcha he calls it a half step forward. I'll ask him just to make sure, he's coming to our club for a camp in the next couple of weeks.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

It is a not an appel, which is where you pick up your front foot and slap it down in the same place, to make a sound (appel = call in French).

<hr /></blockquote>Just because appel means call in French doesn't mean that you need to make a sound. I am French, so I know how to speak French and I know what appel means in French. And I have also been taught by a French master with a French degree, who happens to be now the National Sabre Coach from France, and the description I gave of the appel is the one that he taught me.
The reason why it's called an appel is because it is a preparatory move that "calls" for an answer from the opponent. Not because it rings like a telephone.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

You misdefined a ballestra earlier as being a tap with the ball of the front foot. A ballestra is either a jump forward, or a jump forward-lunge depending on who you are talking to. An appel is in place. A half advance or a half retreat is the first part of the movement.

<hr /></blockquote>If a ballestra is either a jump-forward or a jump-forward lunge, how come nobody just calls it a jump-forward and/or a jump-forward lunge? I'll give you that, the ballestra is defined differently in the italian and french school (not sure of what it is in the italian school and it could very well be what you say), but in the French school, a ballestra is a slapping of the ball of the foot on the floor.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

You've probably never heard of a slide step either, which is a move commonly used by the
Russian sabre fencers. The best way to describe it is that it is the same sort of movement you might make if you wanted to slide on an icy sidewalk. Like the half advance, long and short steps, etc., it is a useful tool to change tempo.

<hr /></blockquote>No I've never heard of it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

I find it interesting that you dismiss the value of the half-step while admitting you've never heard of it. Try it. You might like it.

<hr /></blockquote>What are you talking about? Have you even read my posts? I never dismissed the value of the real half-step. I have dismissed the value of letting your foot dangling in the air, which was the move you described as a half-step forward. 355 and myself both pointed out that this was ineffective, because of the two reasons I mentionned in my post, and 355 pointed out that this was also making your stance go up and down or your guard to go lower because of balance issues when you front foot was dangling in the air.

**Sciurus Rex** · 07-08-2002 08:28 AM

My coach is a certified maestro and USFA section director. He's proven that he knows a thing or two about half-advances and half-retreats. I'm merely a moniteur and a C-ranked fencer, but I'd like to think I've learned something that can be shared here.

But I'll be sure to share Veeco's concerns with him later. He's probably been teaching us incorrectly.

[ 07-08-2002, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Sciurus Rex ]

**MikeHarm** · 07-08-2002 09:56 AM

Different countries/styles sometimes use different terms for the same technique, or sometimes the same terms for different ones. They might both be right.

**Sciurus Rex** · 07-08-2002 10:47 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MikeHarm:
Different countries/styles sometimes use different terms for the same technique, or sometimes the same terms for different ones. They might both be right. <hr /></blockquote>Nah. I doubt it. The strength of Veeco's convictions has proven to me that he's right and there can be no other answer.

My world has been crushed by the force of this revelation. I must retire now to a monestary.

**three_hundred_fifty_five** · 07-08-2002 11:51 AM

For those who believe it is OK to use long step advances and retreats, go to your coach/instructor, get his/her opinion.

**sabreur** · 07-09-2002 01:47 PM

Veeco,

We are obviously taling about things that we would probably agree on, if we could actually show each other.

On the French fencing federation site, in the nifty area where Touya demonstrates a double advance lunge, he talks about the Russians liking to use a slide step.

In the half advance, your foot doesn't hang in mid air. I'll just leave it at that.

Peace, MR

**veeco** · 07-09-2002 02:09 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sabreur:
We are obviously taling about things that we would probably agree on, if we could actually show each other.

Most likely. I'd like a software that lets you create animated gifs from vectorial graphics of a fencer. That would be neat and a great teaching tool to demonstrate the actions on the web :-).


On the French fencing federation site, in the nifty area where Touya demonstrates a double advance lunge, he talks about the Russians liking to use a slide step.
<hr /></blockquote>I had forgotten that part. I have never seen a slide step myself (or most likely I have seen some without knowing what they were), that's why I said I had never heard of it. Apparently Daurelle seems to say that it's not part of the French school, which kind of explains why I had not heard of it before that discussion.

Scurius, I don't pretend to know everything, I just love footwork and tend to be more crazy than anyone about it and spend long periods of time just thinking about what kind of footwork actions would be effective in my next bout. Even though I am an epee fencer I have been using some sabre footwork actions against certain opponents and I found that they work really well.
If I came across as arrogant, please accept my apologies, I was merely trying to point out that taking big steps was not a good idea. I guess I got caught up into a technical discussion which led nowhere since words cannot just convey the correct meaning and timing of the actions necessary when dealing with fencing footwork.

Anyway.

**swordsen** · 07-09-2002 04:02 PM

I am never sure if I am amused or annoyed when arguements ( or shall we say discussions and be nice) decend into the citing of a coach's nationality and history.
It is sort of like the old my dad can beat up your dad thing.....

I am reminded of an incident at the Atlanta Open years ago when it was a very big tournamnet. A recently arrived russian sabre coach became vastly annoyed at one of the directors. After the bout a gentleman appraoched the director and complimneted him for standing up to the russian. (Which no one in the area had been doing) The directors commment was along the lines of "Him? Hah! My Maestro taught his Maestro."

[ 07-09-2002, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: swordsen ]

Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

Thread: Smaller steps against longer steps

Thread Tools

Display

Posting Permissions