Hands Up!

[leia]

Okay,
This came up in training today...
What exactly is the correct way in foil regarding the non sword hand.
Is it in the rules tht it must remain up above the left shoulder (righthander of course) in the traditioanal way?
What is the advantage to it bieng there?
Why is it that we are taught to put it there anyway?
thx

leia

i know this has been covered before but i cant remember sry..

[Epictetus]

Quick run though of USFA rules turned up nothing regarding of hand positioning in foil.

I honestly don't know, our club teachs you to keep your hand wherever he can easiest keep it out of the way (go figure). Personally, I keep my off hand up above the shoulder, as it seems to help my balence, but I think it comes down to personal preference.

[Inquartata]

The traditional off-hand positioning, ie curled behind the head, enables it to be thrown back when lunging, adding to one's impetus. When recovering, it's forcefully brought up again, acting to help reduce the body's inertia.

It is not required or specified in the rules.

[rory]

Originally Posted by leia

Okay,
1) What exactly is the correct way in foil regarding the non sword hand.
2) Is it in the rules tht it must remain up above the left shoulder (righthander of course) in the traditioanal way?
3) What is the advantage to it bieng there?
4) Why is it that we are taught to put it there anyway?

1) "The correct way": whatever feels comfortable and doesn't get you carded.
2) There's no specific rule: but if you cover valid target then you'll get carded.
3) There are pros and cons. Generally it can help you to drive your off-hand back during the lunge; you need the extra impetus this gives you, but without twisting the shoulders. However, the "scorpion" position can lead to increased shoulder tension.
4) Tradition, and because it teaches beginners to keep the shoulders more in-line when lunging.

Personally, I keep mine in what I'd term "standard competitive position" - shoudlers relaxed, elbow low and out to the side. Watch videos of high-level fencing to see what I'm talking about: most competitive fencers keep their hand in roughly the same place.

[mackillian]

Some kid in the youth group of my fencing club who happened to direct a bout this weekend told me during the bout that I should hold my hand up higher for balance.

I explained to him that I can't, I have chronic tendonitis and that classic hand position caused shoulder tension and resulting shoulder pain. It also takes the relaxation away from my fencing and then the quality goes down as well.

He said okay.

Then yesterday he approached me again and AGAIN suggested that I put my hand in the classic position.

That irritated me.

I felt like saying, "I found what works. Drop it."

Instead, I was nice and told him thanks, but it would still cause shoulder pain.

I'm not an instructor, but I say whatever works. Relaxed produces better fencing than tense and as long as that hand is out of the way, I'd go for the relaxed position over a classic position.

My shoulders agree.

[Mergs]

I prefer to teach the hand up in the beginning for the reason stated above, it helps give forward momentum to the lunge. Also helps noobs to keep from getting their hand smacked because most of them forget that foil is a point weapon and insist on trying to hit with the edge. Also, the tendancy is for noobs to pull the hand in front of them when they are attacked. NO NO! Keeping the hand up and out of the way helps a bit with this. Once they are a bit more comfortable with movement, then I say move it out of the way and hold it however is most comfortable, just as long as you don't get in the habit of pulling your hand in front of target. Another thing is that if they hold their hand up, I can see if they are tensing their shoulder by how tight they hold their hand.

It's just like teaching to fence flat-footed as opposed to on your toes. Get the basics right first and then go to more advanced, relaxed stances.

[Morion]

I found that after the first time I got my hand slapped with a foil I had no trouble at all remembering to keep it out of the way. Otherwise it is whatever works. As long as you aren't covering a target area you can hold your off hand where you like. The USFA doesn't care.

[noodle]

hand down for me. its much more natural, comfortable, and i feel perfectly balanced with it down. i feel that if i held my hand up, it would go numb from the blood leaving the limb.

[Genjuro]

As long as it doesn't cover valid target area,
you can put your hand everywhere you like.

[MikeHarm]

I've heard a number of spins on why folks keep the arm up from the counterbalancing story, to it being a holdover from when grappling techniques were part of fencing.

You know, it might be more entertaining for the crowd to watch if you could score by throwing your opponent bodilly off the strip...our insurance rates would probably go up a bit though.

[BrianH]

I teach my beginners to keep their hand up in the classical position both to keep it out of the way and to keep their shoulders aligned. After a couple of months I encourage them to hold it however it is comfortable. They'll keep it out of the way when it is hit a few times. From another thread: "Mistakes should be painful".

I, too, have to keep my hand down by my side because of tendonitis.

BrianH

[MikeHarm]

Narrowing the shoulders would make sense as a great reason for it. In dry fencing you wanted to reduce the visual target area as much as possible so you had less to defend and the opponent had to try for targets that couldn't be seen well by the jury with lower chances of scoring.

That would kind of explain why it drops off with the modern fencers focused on electric scoring. The competitive advantage of really narrowing the shoulders would evaporate completely as the box let everyone score with target that the jury didn't have to see anymore.

[VorpalCat]

Originally Posted by MikeHarm

The competitive advantage of really narrowing the shoulders would evaporate completely as the box let everyone score with target that the jury didn't have to see anymore.

I wouldn't say it evaporated completely. True, there's no longer the need to fool the jury's collective eye with the advent of boxes. But in my small opinion, I think there's still something to be said for the narrowed shoulders just because it's harder to stick a point on something angled more sharply away from you than less. I'm thinking that'd come into play even more with the new foil timings, assuming one's lame isn't baggy enough to snag a point that might otherwise glide on by. (Yes, yes, flicks are a whole other animal, I know.)

[ThaProfessor12]

My coach has me keep it slightly elevated when it comes to lessons ; just above my waist usually , he says to have it in a position like its resting on a chair , anyways , it improves my posture and balance but i forget to keep it there alot when im fencing...

[Unmarked]

One guy at my club insisted on leaving his hand in front of him and guess what?He got it cut up during a bout.It was'nt pretty...

So if you don't wish to be stitching up your hand anytime soon,it'll be safest to either leave it up or somewhere it can't get hit.Personally,I prefer to keep it at my side.

[mrbiggs]

Unless you've been fencing for a long time, keep your hand in the en guard position if you want to lunge. Ever.

It's not hard to see, go to a local club or tournament, and watch some of the U-rated fencers who have their arm down. Probably 95% are OK fencers, who make good attacks, but then when it's time to lunge, they'll either stop, or do a sort of hop thing with their arm extended. At best they'll fleche. Putting your arm anywhere but en guard limits you.

For the record, lunging isn't as important in sabre or épée, and covering target isn't a factor, so you'll see many more fencers in those weapons with their arms down.
But don't cover target in sabre if you like your left hand.

But as long as you don't cover target, you can put it anywheres in all 3 weapons.