new boxes and lefties in Atlanta

[fluidfencer]

Did any right-handed fencers notice a problem scoring on left-handed fencers in foil? Some of our best young fencers were doing fine with the new boxes, until they fence a lefty and just couldn't get the point to register. One kid who usually makes it into the top 8 couldn't make it into the top 32. Another girl was doing terrific until fencing two lefties.

I'm sure it is a problem our coach will help them resolve, but I was wondering if anyone else noticed the difference.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Did any right-handed fencers notice a problem scoring on left-handed fencers in foil? Some of our best young fencers were doing fine with the new boxes, until they fence a lefty and just couldn't get the point to register. One kid who usually makes it into the top 8 couldn't make it into the top 32. Another girl was doing terrific until fencing two lefties.

I'm sure it is a problem our coach will help them resolve, but I was wondering if anyone else noticed the difference.

Duh, they're lefties.

[Madmartigan]

Most right hander relies on chest flick in order to score on lefties (both as attack and ripose.) With new timing, that action is now more difficult to do. There are many alternative solution. I found six disengage to be extremely useful, since most lefthander use parry four as their primary line of defense (espacially when you beat their blade from the inside line.) Also, going for flank touches can be effective... and useful as long run distraction so you can go back and attack in four line.

[fluidfencer]

no no no... I am talking about a nice straight poke on the chest. No flicks. These are experienced kids I'm talking about. It was like "poke poke poke" and then "ARRRRGGGGG". I guess it is as simple as the angle at which you are hitting (when righty hits lefty in the chest). I wouldn't have bothered mentioning it if it had been me (mediocre fencer that I am).

Let the thread die unless somebody else had a very AH HAH! moment.

[Fencing Mom]

I was just talking to my son who is on his way back from refereeing this weekend in Atlanta. I asked him if he saw any strange results because of the new timing. He said he saw quite a few mediocre lefties take out several good right-handed foilists. According to him, all that the lefties did was duck and counterattack and the better right-handed foilists couldn't get any touches on them.
Second hand knowledge. I can't explain any more than that.

[Grasshopper]

Sounds like them lefties are cheatin' again!

[Schiavona]

We 'lefties' like to call it superior genetics.

[Inquartata]

Of course you do, why wouldn't you? Now please take your medication, that's a good chap...

[Schiavona]

Of course you do, why wouldn't you? Now please take your medication, that's a good chap...

But it makes me feel all fuzzy and I can't hear the angels talk to me......

[Barry Paul]

From the experience at two open U.K. competition the most likely reason for not hiting is either two fast ie failed flick hits in which the contact time when the depressed point was on the valid target for less than 15 ms or just as likely is shorting of the tip of the foil to the lame either due to faulty tape at the tip ( very inportantant even screws sticking thru the tip tape can cause shorting) or shorting from the point to the blade just below the foil tape.

Why would this happen more when fencing left handers, might have some thing to do with relative positions of the trunks in which there is an almost 180 degree change.

At a recent event Rowe V Mansour.

Rowe complaining that hits are not arriving. Eventually testing by hitting Mansour middle of chest repeatedly produced no light at all. I check his point tape which seems ok not perfectly. I told him to change the foil. Problem goes away.

Mansour still complaining. On the break I go over to Mansour to check his foil. There is at least 2.0 mm of gap in his tip tape. I replace the tip tape, he starts to get all the hit he was not getting before.

Can I repeat the advice with the new timing having the tip properly taped is very inportant. As the contact time is much longer it gives the lame more time to fold round the tip and short to any uncovered part of the barrel. The Yellow/Black/Red cloth tape is no good as tip tape (it is O.K for the blade) you should use the P.V.C. Tape supplied by Leon Paul or other vendors. with a layer of cloth tape over the top.

Make sure the tape down the blade is at least 150 mm long better make it 250 mm long. When a referee says it is too long tell them that the regulation says 150 mm with no tolerance so could he measure all other foils and if it is not exactly 150 mm ban them as well.

[Barry Paul]

Also of note of why hits don't arrive.

What I have found is that it is possible make what seems to be a valid hit, which is executed as a failed flick or cutover in which the point is either flat to the lame or bent so far the tip of point is shorting to the blade after the tape covering the tip. In both cases the point is never depressed and in contact with the lame for a period of over 15 milliseconds, therefore no hit is registered. By pushing harder or maintaining contact nothing will happen, as the point is in contact with the valid target but is not depressed or is depressed but shorted against the un-insulated blade..

If the opponent now hits successfully while the attackers point is still pushed flat against the lame, a valid hit will come up against the attacker. If the attacker does nothing for 300 millisecond the box locks out and he now cannot score a hit what ever he subsequently does.

If instead of doing nothing or pushing harder the attacker withdraws his arm or his opponent continues to retreat the blade straightens up. At some point the pressure on the point starts pushing the point in the direction of the point barrel and the point contact breaks (the foil point is depressed) and after 15 milliseconds if the point is contact with the valid target a hit is registered. If the point is whipped off too quickly the point is not depressed for 15 milliseconds and no hit registers.

With the old timing this withdrawal before the contact period was reached was almost impossible. I think that lots of hits in the past have in fact been on this withdrawal or straightening after the initial attacking action. The action happening so fast that the referee or the watchers would not see what is in fact a renewal of an attack.

[ChubbyHubby]

See Barry's full explaination here

The article was written after the first major competition with the new timings in the UK.

[Inquartata]

I must be missing the part that explains where it's specific to lefties...

[Barry Paul]

'Why would this happen more when fencing left handers, might have some thing to do with relative positions of the fencers trunks/bodies in which there is an almost 180 degree change. quote'

So right hander hitting a left hander is more likely to have the blade flater (ie it shorts) to the body when hitting than if he was fencing a righthander

[DJ Apostrophe]

why is it harder for righties to hit lefties but not harder for lefties to hit righties? that is what i am missing here...

[Victor]

Were they wearing green socks? I've noticed that on certain Saturdays, green socks can affect valid touches. (Our local witch doctor has confirmed it, too.) The last competition I attended, at least three supposedly good fencers failed to make the top-16 places; when we started looking for reasons they weren't performing up to their potential, we naturally came to the conclusion that green socks were to blame.

[Barry Paul]

why is it harder for righties to hit lefties but not harder for lefties to hit righties? that is what i am missing here...
__________________


Could be to do with the fact that lefties fence righties 8 out of 10 fights while righties only fence lefties 2 out of 10 fights?

Why are there more good world class fencers that are left rather than right?

Doh

[DJ Apostrophe]

barry,

my point was that 'all of a sudden it it so much harder for righties to hit lefties with the new timing' was mentioned here .... if it had something to do with the timing i would contest that it would affect the lefties in much the same way.

[CvilleFencer]

I think it is just the position of the bodys. A lefty is very used to hitting into the body of a right handed fencer but right handed fencers are having more problems getting their points to "stick" long enough to count. I had a lot of problems with this, and I fence left handed fencers all the time, so people who do not fence them a few times a week are probably having even more issues. I am finding that I have to come more into the four line for my attacks to stick. The problem of course is that is not always possible or a good idea...

I have also noticed that the timing seem to benefit new fencers who do not have correct distance and timing as they just charge in and my attacks seem to bend far enough to ground out or they bounce off!

[AllisonT]

How were the lefty-vs-lefty bouts...equally messy? That's the control in this experiment.

One more thing to love about the new timing!
Less flicking.
Possibly advantageous to lefties.
I can feel my classification going up this season!